I'm Ticked Off - Kwame Leave the Church Out of Your Mess!!!

[Shimmie]

So is he going to mess up the Church with his mess!

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/15164047/detail.html

I'm so tired of fools who think that they can mess up and then run to the Church to try and look 'Lily White' or innocent, or repentant.

Why wait until you get caught and exposed and all of a sudden...it's Church you are a part of. And he's suddenly sorry. All he's doing is making the Church look like a den of fornicators and seekers of the flesh.

I'm not gracious about this. I'm not gracious at all.... The Church is not a cover up. It's Holy Ground. This man is a dog...make your speech in the street and leave the Church out of it.

Sorry precious ones....... I'm just venting............

 

[PaperClip]

Shimmie.... I can't say out loud what I really want to say/ask about this aspect of the situation.... Sigh.... I will more than likely ask my pastor about his take on this aspect of the case, e.g., the church's involvement/stance on the church building as the backdrop for the presentation....

 

[Finesse]

So is he going to mess up the Church with his mess!

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/15164047/detail.html

I'm so tired of fools who think that they can mess up and then run to the Church to try and look 'Lily White' or innocent, or repentant.

Why wait until you get caught and exposed and all of a sudden...it's Church you are a part of. And he's suddenly sorry. All he's doing is making the Church look like a den of fornicators and seekers of the flesh.

I'm not gracious about this. I'm not gracious at all.... The Church is not a cover up. It's Holy Ground. This man is a dog...make your speech in the street and leave the Church out of it.

Sorry precious ones....... I'm just venting............

I agree with this whole post. Why choose the church now? He was not thinking about the church when....nevermind

 

[Shimmie]

Shimmie.... I can't say out loud what I really want to say/ask about this aspect of the situation.... Sigh.... I will more than likely ask my pastor about his take on this aspect of the case, e.g., the church's involvement/stance on the church building as the backdrop for the presentation....

I hear you, RR. But you know how I am. It just makes the Church look bad. e.g., he did his dirt and the Church is backing him up. 'Step down and man-up'. I have no respect for him.

That's it...!!! That's what I'm trying to convey. It takes away from the respect of the Church. It makes the Church look weak and non credible. Ppl mess up and before a court they plead, "they are a Christian and go to Church, and blah, blah, blah...well instead of making themselves appear with credibility, they've made the Church look non credible...weak and without authority or stance in respectability.

:hardslap: that's what he's giving to the Church; a slap in the face. No respect, he's just using us to save his nasty behind...

 

[Shimmie]

I agree with this whole post. Why choose the church now? He was not thinking about the church when....nevermind

EXACTLY, Finesse. Why all of a sudden, he's man of honor. He's a dog and the street would have been just fine to make his plea.

 

[PaperClip]

Well now hold up, y'all....

Simply going to a church doesn't make you a bad person. Going there in time of trouble isn't a bad thing. My "concern" is for those who are supposed to be DEFENDERS of the faith and allowing the church to be MOCKED or PIMPED.... The mayor has been a member of this particular church for a couple of years. So there is some type of pastoral relationship there. From a POLITICAL/PUBLIC RELATIONS standpoint, it's a MOCKERY to me. The mayor should have made his announcement at the official residence or his OFFICE. Not a church.

Like I said, there's another sticking point about this from the church perspective that I'd like to ask my pastor about before I say anything else.... In fact, why don't I just go ahead and email my pastor about this right now.... And isn't it a blessing that I can send my pastor and email and he responds!

 

[Shimmie]

Well now hold up, y'all....

Simply going to a church doesn't make you a bad person. Going there in time of trouble isn't a bad thing. My "concern" is for those who are supposed to be DEFENDERS of the faith and allowing the church to be MOCKED or PIMPED.... The mayor has been a member of this particular church for a couple of years. So there is some type of pastoral relationship there. From a POLITICAL/PUBLIC RELATIONS standpoint, it's a MOCKERY to me. The mayor should have made his announcement at the official residence or his OFFICE. Not a church.

Like I said, there's another sticking point about this from the church perspective that I'd like to ask my pastor about before I say anything else.... In fact, why don't I just go ahead and email my pastor about this right now.... And isn't it a blessing that I can send my pastor and email and he responds!

Thanks RR....

I'll send an email to mine as well. They know how I am with issues like this.

But here's my point, it is a Mockery, which is the word I was also trying to express. Mockery. Where was his longstanding relationship with his Church and Pastor when he was messing up? I'm not not 'there' with this man. He is using the Church to 'appear' credible. And he's not. And that's why I'm so ticked off. For this is one of the reasons, why no one respect us.

 

[PaperClip]

Thanks RR....

I'll send an email to mine as well. They know how I am with issues like this.

But here's my point, it is a Mockery, which is the word I was also trying to express. Mockery. Where was his longstanding relationship with his Church and Pastor when he was messing up? I'm not not 'there' with this man. He is using the Church to 'appear' credible. And he's not. And that's why I'm so ticked off. For this is one of the reasons, why no one respect us.

Well, let me share a couple of things:

1. Detroit is a southern town in a northern location. It could be described as the Bible belt of the north.

2. Detroit is also a predominantly Black city. Mix Black folk and church? A winning strategy for a politician, esp. a BLACK one.

3. Also, this mayor is a homegrown boy. He was born and bred here. Both of his parents have been heavily involved in local and state politics.

4. People WANTED to believe in him and gave him a second chance with his re-election because he came off as REPENTENT.

5. For me, as much as it's about him using the church, it's MORESO about the CHURCH ALLOWING ITSELF to be USED in such a way. I don't blame the mayor for using the church in this way because I don't think he sees it that way or his religious/spiritual consciousness has not been CHALLENGED to see it that way....

And WHO is supposed to CHALLENGE US in our spiritual walk to represent Christ and uphold biblical principles in our lives? PASTORS....

Interestingly, the pastor of the woman he had the affair with has said some things in a more direct and, dare I say, convicting manner.

 

[PaperClip]

Thanks RR....

I'll send an email to mine as well. They know how I am with issues like this.

But here's my point, it is a Mockery, which is the word I was also trying to express. Mockery. Where was his longstanding relationship with his Church and Pastor when he was messing up? I'm not not 'there' with this man. He is using the Church to 'appear' credible. And he's not. And that's why I'm so ticked off. For this is one of the reasons, why no one respect us.

Ahh... now this point you're making is clearing up for me now.... Yes... you're absolutely right.... Our RESPECT and DEFENSE of the faith and the church is weak....

 

[misbehavn23]

Well, let me share a couple of things:

1. Detroit is a southern town in a northern location. It could be described as the Bible belt of the north.

2. Detroit is also a predominantly Black city. Mix Black folk and church? A winning strategy for a politician, esp. a BLACK one.

RR, this is soooo true.

I had a chance to see him give his speech last night online. I also listened to local radio stations after the specch (like FM98 wjlb). I already get the idea how people around the city feel but I would like to know the reaction of the people that live in the city. From what I was hearing on the local stations people were like they back Kwame and CB should have resigned.

 

[PinkPebbles]

So is he going to mess up the Church with his mess!

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/15164047/detail.html

I'm so tired of fools who think that they can mess up and then run to the Church to try and look 'Lily White' or innocent, or repentant.

Why wait until you get caught and exposed and all of a sudden...it's Church you are a part of. And he's suddenly sorry. All he's doing is making the Church look like a den of fornicators and seekers of the flesh.

I'm not gracious about this. I'm not gracious at all.... The Church is not a cover up. It's Holy Ground. This man is a dog...make your speech in the street and leave the Church out of it.

Sorry precious ones....... I'm just venting............

Shimmie I agree with you 100%. I'll pm you.

 

[Shimmie]

Shimmie I agree with you 100%. I'll pm you.

Thanks sweetheart......

 

[Shimmie]

Well now hold up, y'all....

Simply going to a church doesn't make you a bad person. Going there in time of trouble isn't a bad thing. My "concern" is for those who are supposed to be DEFENDERS of the faith and allowing the church to be MOCKED or PIMPED.... The mayor has been a member of this particular church for a couple of years. So there is some type of pastoral relationship there. From a POLITICAL/PUBLIC RELATIONS standpoint, it's a MOCKERY to me. The mayor should have made his announcement at the official residence or his OFFICE. Not a church.

Like I said, there's another sticking point about this from the church perspective that I'd like to ask my pastor about before I say anything else.... In fact, why don't I just go ahead and email my pastor about this right now.... And isn't it a blessing that I can send my pastor and email and he responds!

I hear you, RR

I can always depend on you to share the 'balance' of what I'm not aware of. I NEVER knew Detroit was like this.....'Chruch-wise'.

Now I'm really upset....

I love you precious sister. So what were the comments made by the woman's pastor?

RR, I just feel that he should do the honorable thing and 'sit' down. Because even if it's the Church's mindset........See this is why no one respects us as a race. Because we present a 'weak' stand. Politics is crooked in all cultures and races. But now it's like, whatever it takes to get a 'Black Man' in. OR Detroit is so grateful to have a Black man, they'll settle for anything and the pay back is that he shames us.

That's another thing that ticks me off. Don't be Black and mess up. It reflects on all of us who've suffered enough just for having brown skin.

Uggggggggg! I'm going after this one RR. I'm going after him.

Kwame, you're wanna use the Church, well this is how it's going to be....you are going to LIVE Right!

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr! Mama bear is ticked!

 

[Shimmie]

Ahh... now this point you're making is clearing up for me now.... Yes... you're absolutely right.... Our RESPECT and DEFENSE of the faith and the church is weak....

RR, we work hard for our faith. And our labor is not in vain. I'm tired of ppl messing it up for us. I'm tired of it.

I'm glad you're here with background and 'the balance'. I really did not know how Detroit was ... mindset.

Cause girl, I'm ready to 'roll' that man. .....:hardslap:...

 

[Shimmie]

RR, this is soooo true.

I had a chance to see him give his speech last night online. I also listened to local radio stations after the specch (like FM98 wjlb). I already get the idea how people around the city feel but I would like to know the reaction of the people that live in the city. From what I was hearing on the local stations people were like they back Kwame and CB should have resigned.

Thank you for sharing this angel.

 

[Sashaa08]

I hear you, ladies!

I am always conflicted because I understand that the church is trying to be more open, welcoming, forgiving and less judgmental. I mean if you can't turn to the church, who can you turn to?

However, my concern is that it seems like high profile individuals (Kilpatrick, R Kelly, Bill Clinton, etc.) all of a sudden are photographed or seen at church or with religious leaders when something bad has happened, when previously, the church had not played a major role in their public lives. Maybe I am skeptical and they are being sincere, but I feel that they are using the church as a publicity stunt and that I don't like.

 

[PaperClip]

I hear you, RR

I can always depend on you to share the 'balance' of what I'm not aware of. I NEVER knew Detroit was like this.....'Chruch-wise'.

Now I'm really upset....

I love you precious sister. So what were the comments made by the woman's pastor?

RR, I just feel that he should do the honorable thing and 'sit' down. Because even if it's the Church's mindset........See this is why no one respects us as a race. Because we present a 'weak' stand. Politics is crooked in all cultures and races. But now it's like, whatever it takes to get a 'Black Man' in. OR Detroit is so grateful to have a Black man, they'll settle for anything and the pay back is that he shames us.

That's another thing that ticks me off. Don't be Black and mess up. It reflects on all of us who've suffered enough just for having brown skin.

Uggggggggg! I'm going after this one RR. I'm going after him.

Kwame, you're wanna use the Church, well this is how it's going to be....you are going to LIVE Right!

Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr! Mama bear is ticked!

Shimmie, I feel like he should resign as well, not (only) because of the infidelity, but because his infidelity has been FUNDED BY PUBLIC TAX DOLLARS!!!!

Here's the link to one news article (I tried to find the video!) http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080125/METRO/801250371

and here's some of the remarks from her pastor:

The Rev. Ronald Griffin of Rose of Sharon Church of God in Christ said Thursday afternoon he and his wife have been counseling Beatty and that she is devastated by what has happened. He wouldn't be specific, in part because of the potential legal issues she could face, but said Beatty knows she made a mistake.

"She knows her life will never be the same," Griffin said. "She fully realizes the consequences and all those that she has affected. She has not tried to justify it."

 

[Shimmie]

Shimmie, I feel like he should resign as well, not (only) because of the infidelity, but because his infidelity has been FUNDED BY PUBLIC TAX DOLLARS!!!!

Here's the link to one news article (I tried to find the video!) http://www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080125/METRO/801250371

and here's some of the remarks from her pastor:

The Rev. Ronald Griffin of Rose of Sharon Church of God in Christ said Thursday afternoon he and his wife have been counseling Beatty and that she is devastated by what has happened. He wouldn't be specific, in part because of the potential legal issues she could face, but said Beatty knows she made a mistake.

"She knows her life will never be the same," Griffin said. "She fully realizes the consequences and all those that she has affected.
She has not tried to justify it." [/quote]

That's it! That's what else I'm trying to convey.

I 'see' Kwame as using the Church to try and 'justify' his actions and to support his not stepping down from office. In other words, if the Church is backing him, then why should he step down. "I'm a Church goin' man; my Pastor believes in me...I 'got' this. I don't have to give up this position."

NOW......I'm only going to say this once. Cause you see VERY few posts (if any) that I've ever said, "that's my humble opinion'.

What I shared above about Kwame is JMHO.........

Nawwwwwwwwwwww, it's a fact!

 

[Shimmie]

I hear you, ladies!

I am always conflicted because I understand that the church is trying to be more open, welcoming, forgiving and less judgmental. I mean if you can't turn to the church, who can you turn to?

However, my concern is that it seems like high profile individuals (Kilpatrick, R Kelly, Bill Clinton, etc.) all of a sudden are photographed or seen at church or with religious leaders when something bad has happened, when previously, the church had not played a major role in their public lives. Maybe I am skeptical and they are being sincere, but I feel that they are using the church as a publicity stunt and that I don't like.

And Sashaa, this bothers me, that they do this....they're not sincere. They are using 'our' 'good name' to cover their dirt.

 

[ladyofvirtue]

Hey Shimmie,

Girl, you betta go head on and tell it like it is!

But, the real danger is that even if Mayor Kilpatrick "escapes the justice of man, he will never be able to escape the justice of God.

I have mixed emotions about him which are anger, rage and pity.

They showed him entering the church before he gave his snow-job, I mean, speech as he pushed and shoved photographers out of his way. I don't think he knew the cameras were rolling.

The man appears to be one who has a seared conscience. How could he use his wife, who has aged 10 years, and then turn around and walk up into the church to try and mend his ways? Why didn't he do it at the mansion, Cobo Hall or some other establishment? And why would the pastor allow him to do such a thing in the House of God?

BE NOT DECEIVED, GOD IS NOT MOCKED. WHATSOEVER A MAN SOWETH, THAT SHALL HE ALSO REAP.

GOD IS NO REPECTOR OF PERSONS.

WE MUST ALL STAND BEFORE THE JUDGEMENT SEAT TO GIVE AN ACCOUNT OF THE DEEDS DONE IN THIS BODY.

(all Scripture taken from the Bible)

 

[Shimmie]

Hey Shimmie,

Girl, you betta go head on and tell it like it is!

But, the real danger is that even if Mayor Kilpatrick "escapes the justice of man, he will never be able to escape the justice of God.

I have mixed emotions about him which are anger, rage and pity.

They showed him entering the church before he gave his snow-job, I mean, speech as he pushed and shoved photographers out of his way. I don't think he knew the cameras were rolling.

The man appears to be one who has a seared conscience. How could he use his wife, who has aged 10 years, and then turn around and walk up into the church to try and mend his ways? Why didn't he do it at the mansion, Cobo Hall or some other establishment? And why would the pastor allow him to do such a thing in the House of God?

BE NOT DECEIVED, GOD IS NOT MOCKED. WHATSOEVER A MAN SOWETH, THAT SHALL HE ALSO REAP.

GOD IS NO REPECTOR OF PERSONS.

WE MUST ALL STAND BEFORE THE JUDGEMENT SEAT TO GIVE AN ACCOUNT OF THE DEEDS DONE IN THIS BODY.

(all Scripture taken from the Bible)

Lady of Virtue....you surely are, one of Virtue .

I need you all to keep me straight, here. I'm really fuming over this issue. So set me straight, before I :hardslap: this man.

I love mercy and compassion, but I don't like being played for a fool. And I can't help 'sensing' that this is what he's doing. Playing the "act" of repentence.

There are two words that come to mind that 'we' used to say when we were teens, "He phoney".

Never used the words, He is (She is) or He's (or She's), it was simply, "He Phoney" or "She Phoney".

We could always 'spot' a phoney person; someone trying to put on a 'front'...a false image. And we always called them out. That's the Harlem Holy Ghost.

 

[PaperClip]

That's it! That's what else I'm trying to convey.

I 'see' Kwame as using the Church to try and 'justify' his actions and to support his not stepping down from office. In other words, if the Church is backing him, then why should he step down. "I'm a Church goin' man; my Pastor believes in me...I 'got' this. I don't have to give up this position."

NOW......I'm only going to say this once. Cause you see VERY few posts (if any) that I've ever said, "that's my humble opinion'.

What I shared above about Kwame is JMHO.........

Nawwwwwwwwwwww, it's a fact!

Uh oh! Now you brought it up, I gotta say it: the mayor's pastor has been interviewed as saying "He's on his own" in terms of what he is saying in the announcement. When I heard and saw that, I was like "Huh?" So he can use the church building, but he's "on his own"? That just didn't balance out to me....

 

[Nice & Wavy]

So is he going to mess up the Church with his mess!

http://www.clickondetroit.com/news/15164047/detail.html

I'm so tired of fools who think that they can mess up and then run to the Church to try and look 'Lily White' or innocent, or repentant.

Why wait until you get caught and exposed and all of a sudden...it's Church you are a part of. And he's suddenly sorry. All he's doing is making the Church look like a den of fornicators and seekers of the flesh.

I'm not gracious about this. I'm not gracious at all.... The Church is not a cover up. It's Holy Ground. This man is a dog...make your speech in the street and leave the Church out of it.

Sorry precious ones....... I'm just venting............

Hey sis,

I've just read this thread and it makes me angry as well. Unfortunately, there is going to be things like this happening and more. We are going to have to brace ourselves...for this is the beginning of woes.

 

[Nice & Wavy]

Uh oh! Now you brought it up, I gotta say it: the mayor's pastor has been interviewed as saying "He's on his own" in terms of what he is saying in the announcement. When I heard and saw that, I was like "Huh?" So he can use the church building, but he's "on his own"? That just didn't balance out to me....

Unbelieveable....

 

[Shimmie]

Uh oh! Now you brought it up, I gotta say it: the mayor's pastor has been interviewed as saying "He's on his own" in terms of what he is saying in the announcement. When I heard and saw that, I was like "Huh?" So he can use the church building, but he's "on his own"? That just didn't balance out to me....

You know what Baby Sis, I think his Pastor is 'aware' that Kwame is still in sin...rather he has not fully repented. Pastor's no fool , he' has to answer to God and his wife for supporting Kwame's wrong.

God is using you to calm me down and confirming what's in my spirit about this man. I started off this thread with a serious attitude, and now ..................I still have one.

Pray for me girl...

 

[Shimmie]

Hey sis,

I've just read this thread and it makes me angry as well. Unfortunately, there is going to be things like this happening and more. We are going to have to brace ourselves...for this is the beginning of woes.

Thanks for coming in, Precious Wavy. You're so right that we have to brace ourselves. I have to depend on you and RR to calm me down.

Love you, Darlin' Wavy, love to my 'brother' (DH) too.

Love you too, RR,

Love to everyone here and I'm sorry angels for venting so strongly. I hope no one is offended neither affected by it. I'm just tired of wimps in the Body of Christ. Men who DO know better.

Precious Wavy...now I have two of them to :hardslap: First Weeks for lying and now Kwame (aka "KK" Mayor). Why can't these men just leave the Church out of their mess? Both of them need to step down!

 

[Nice & Wavy]

Thanks for coming in, Precious Wavy. You're so right that we have to brace ourselves. I have to depend on you and RR to calm me down.

Love you, Darlin' Wavy, love to my 'brother' (DH) too.

Love you too, RR,

Love to everyone here and I'm sorry angels for venting so strongly. I hope no one is offended neither affected by it. I'm just tired of wimps in the Body of Christ. Men who DO know better.

Precious Wavy...now I have two of them to :hardslap: First Weeks for lying and now Kwame (aka "KK" Mayor). Why can't these men just leave the Church out of their mess? Both of them need to step down!

They are too stubborn to step down.

Girl.....let me help you out on this one....:hardslap:

 

[envybeauty]

I feel for churches today. They have very little guidance or support from society.

Churches used to be strong in their stance that any kind of sin was wrong and that the church would not support sinners (evidently only sinners who had to wear their sin on their sleeves so to speak) by allowing them to conduct certain activities related to their sin in the church. Back then, it was hard to find a church that would marry you if you were pregnant and showing. Some didn't christen babies born to single parents. Some still don't do those things and will refuse to so much as counsel couples who are currently unwed yet expecting.

The churches got criticized sharply by Christians. They were scourned in the past for standing on moral ground and not reaching out to sinners where the sin was made evident to the public (as many sin in private but others can't prove it). Under the weight of such criticism, more churches started to turn around. They did so on the premise that people sin, what is done is done, people change, and we should not judge another sinner as only God can truly judge people. It is on that premise that I believe churches today allow people like Kwame to come into the church to tell his story. If a church did not allow Kwame to do so, you would have some Christians saying shame on the church! That the church should be a role model in seeing the good in people and for forgiving people of their sins. Then, you have others who say the church should not allow others to use the church as a platform for their guilty ways.

Churches today have no guidance and little support from Christians. We are a body under Christ but you would never know it looking from the outside in.

Shimmie: I just feel conflicted for the church. I do not think Kwame should use the church as his personal pulpit but I also don't know where the church should draw the line. Exclude cheaters but not fornicators? I don't know. The churches themselves don't know where to draw the line because any line that is drawn will also draw criticism from any number of Christians.

 

[Shimmie]

They are too stubborn to step down.

Girl.....let me help you out on this one....:hardslap:

I love this smiley...:hardslap:

Attention Eveyone!

Let it be known to all who read and bear witness,
that it's the devil who is getting the 'smack down'
per Shimmie and Nice & Wavy!

:hardslap: Pow!!! :hardslap:

he's a defeated foe
and he is under our feet!​

 

[Shimmie]

I feel for churches today. They have very little guidance or support from society.

Churches used to be strong in their stance that any kind of sin was wrong and that the church would not support sinners (evidently only sinners who had to wear their sin on their sleeves so to speak) by allowing them to conduct certain activities related to their sin in the church. Back then, it was hard to find a church that would marry you if you were pregnant and showing. Some didn't christen babies born to single parents. Some still don't do those things and will refuse to so much as counsel couples who are currently unwed yet expecting.

The churches got criticized sharply by Christians. They were scourned in the past for standing on moral ground and not reaching out to sinners where the sin was made evident to the public (as many sin in private but others can't prove it). Under the weight of such criticism, more churches started to turn around. They did so on the premise that people sin, what is done is done, people change, and we should not judge another sinner as only God can truly judge people. It is on that premise that I believe churches today allow people like Kwame to come into the church to tell his story. If a church did not allow Kwame to do so, you would have some Christians saying shame on the church! That the church should be a role model in seeing the good in people and for forgiving people of their sins. Then, you have others who say the church should not allow others to use the church as a platform for their guilty ways.

Churches today have no guidance and little support from Christians. We are a body under Christ but you would never know it looking from the outside in.

Shimmie: I just feel conflicted for the church. I do not think Kwame should use the church as his personal pulpit but I also don't know where the church should draw the line. Exclude cheaters but not fornicators? I don't know. The churches themselves don't know where to draw the line because any line that is drawn will also draw criticism from any number of Christians.

Each case should be addressed as it becomes known. God's word tells us so when we see a brother in sin to go to him; if he rejects, then go again with others; if he still rejects correction then he must be released from affiliation until he repents, turns away from his / her sin(s).

In Kwame's case, I believe the Pastor is aware of unrepented sin; and/or the Pastor does not trust him; the Pastor is guarded about Kwame.

In this case if it were I as Pastor, I would counsel Kwame, ask him directly if he is still in sin. And I would have him 'step down, resign from the office of mayor, for he is no longer an example of excellence.

Considering the situation, I would not allow him to put the Church in a vunerable position by using it as a cover-up or a hide out; or as a 'front'... as a stage for innocent appearances.

Kwame would be welcome to attend Church, he would have a 'sponsor' (the same as AA and NA) and to 'sit' under the word until the Holy Spirit, releases me to do otherwise.