i have a question for catholics

[Sweet C]

Why are you guys arguing about catholic practices or beliefs. We shall answer to one God. I myself questions some of the beliefs of catholics, but I am not going to bash them over the head for it. They believe in praying to saints (who are long dead) and also to the mother Mary or asking them to pray for them. I pray to God in Jesus name through the Holy Spirit. When I feel I need extra help, I will ask the Holy Spirit to pray for me. If catholics want to pray to Mary or long dead saints for help, let them. That is between them and God. But as for me, I always go the Head Honcho for help. No minions for me.

No one is arguing about catholic pratices or beliefs. We are simply having a discussion about it, so that all those in the Body of Christ can have a better understanding of one another. I had people tell me in college that when I told them I grew up in a Holiness church, they told me "Oh, your with them folks that walk over snakes and scorpions". I'm like , . It wasn't that until we had a deeper discussion that they realized that it was something from a particular church in the area they were from, not all Holiness or Penecostal churches. Though are viewpoints differ, we ALL believe that Jesus Christ is Lord and has died for our sins.

 

[Tai]

I see what exactly what Edie is saying in her post.

I haven't seen a thread over here asking about the practices of Jehovah's witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists, or any other Christian religion. Maybe it's just me, but it seems like it's the Catholic practices that people want to know about and I suppose I don't understand why. Maybe I'd feel better if I saw someone asking about the churches where members break out in tongues, or where the women aren't allowed to cut their hair and must wear long skirts. I've seen the why include saints in prayer, why can't priests/nuns marry, why no meat on Fridays, etc. questions that have all been answered. And some of the posts do seem argumentative. If you don't believe in the practices of the the Catholic Church, that's fine. But don't try to imply that our practices and beliefs are wrong or go against the word of God.

 

[Sweet C]

I see what exactly what Edie is saying in her post.

I haven't seen a thread over here asking about the practices of Jehovah's witnesses, Seventh Day Adventists, or any other Christian religion. Maybe it's just me, but it seems like it's the Catholic practices that people want to know about and I suppose I don't understand why. Maybe I'd feel better if I saw someone asking about the churches where members break out in tongues, or where the women aren't allowed to cut their hair and must wear long skirts. I've seen the why include saints in prayer, why can't priests/nuns marry, why no meat on Fridays, etc. questions that have all been answered. And some of the posts do seem argumentative. If you don't believe in the practices of the the Catholic Church, that's fine. But don't try to imply that our practices and beliefs are wrong or go against the word of God.

I see where you are coming from Tai, and in all respect, this is a forum. If u have questions about SDA, Jehovah Witness, etc. feel free to make a thread. Me, personally, I am about to move to an area (real country) where there is a high percentage of Catholics and Presbyterians, so I am one who wants to gain info about various backgrounds of these denominations in particular so I can more effectively minister to those who aren't saved. You pointed me to the website about Catholism, so I just asked for further clarification about what I saw on the site (and the site said that b/c I was a Protestant I was under false teachings). I have to give it up to Vintagecoily locks. She backed up what she believes with scripture and I have the upmost respect for those who do study and show themselves approved even if I disagree.

 

[Tai]

I'm very much aware that this is a forum, SweetC. I think that Vintage did a very good job of providing further clarification that perhaps wasn't found to your satisfaction at the site that I referenced. One of the reasons that I mentioned that site is that there is a forum there available to everyone, where one can ask questions and get various points of view from Catholics and other Christians. If you're trying to imply that you don't have respect for me because I didn't post up Scripture like Vintage, that's also fine. I thought the site would be helpful but I guess it wasn't. I had good intentions. I still hope that you find the information that you seek so that you may effectively minister to those who not saved.

 

[AnnDriena_]

There's that word "bashing" again. The questions posed here are of a biblical nature and out of curiosity from our questions about biblical and catholic traditions.
Many people here have questioned other members personal practices with regards to the bible and how they perceive their actions to be in a much more confrontational and not at all curious way and that would seem to bashing.

But their are questions being posed here. And yes it does some that others do not believe in the same practices and rituals but that is not bashing.

 

[DragonPearl]

We are not worshipping the saints at all. They are basically our role models . We ask for their intercession for different matters such as health, success, etc. We are in no way saying, I worship you dear saint... but rather please plead to God on my behalf and ask him to help me pass this test. Much in the same way that one would speak to a favorite relative that has since passed. I have never seen anyone bowing down and worshipping a saint. Their statutes abound and their books are plentiful as reminders not so that we could worship them but to remind us that the saints were human (just like us) and that everyone of us should aspire to be saints! (sorry for going on but I have a great affection for the saints!)

The Blessed Virgin Mary is one of our most powerful intercessors. Jesus, Himself, says and shows this. For His very first miracle, the changing of the water into wine at Cana, Jesus' Mother interceded on behalf of the wedding hosts. When they needed more wine they went to His Mother and not Him and then the beautiful miracle happened. Jesus was sitting right there and the wedding hosts knew Him well yet they went to His Mother first...

Jesus is showing us by this story that we can also go through His Mother to reach Him. (We can also go to Him directly, of course, but in His love, He is providing us with another option.) The Jesus is very subtle. He never comes right out and says do this or that. The fact that he started his public ministry with this miracle is very telling. Blessed Virgin Mary has interceded on my behalf many a time.

Chichi

Thank you very much for explaining this so eloquently. As someone who grew up Catholic, and who still prays daily to my favorite Catholic Saint (St. Therese aka Little Flower) I and many in my family can testify to the power of these prayers and the miracles they have effected in our lives. Please correct me if I am wrong, but Christ himself never said that dead people have nothing to do with the living.

And the last thing I want to add is, if one cannot or should not ask a Saint to pray to God for us, then why is it okay for people to come to the forum and ask someone else to pray to God for them? The same argument can be made that no one can pray for someone else, that one should always go directly to God. I don't see the difference.

 

[PretteePlease]

Thanks For All Of The Answers
i hope this thread stays a civil discussion.
cant be having threads locked on the christian board

 

[Tai]

Thank you very much for explaining this so eloquently. As someone who grew up Catholic, and who still prays daily to my favorite Catholic Saint (St. Therese aka Little Flower) I and many in my family can testify to the power of these prayers and the miracles they have effected in our lives. Please correct me if I am wrong, but Christ himself never said that dead people have nothing to do with the living.

And the last thing I want to add is, if one cannot or should not ask a Saint to pray to God for us, then why is it okay for people to come to the forum and ask someone else to pray to God for them? The same argument can be made that no one can pray for someone else, that one should always go directly to God. I don't see the difference.

It seems that their point about why we shouldn't include Saints in our prayers is that they are dead and that the dead cannot pray for the living. From what I've gathered from the posts, that is the difference. Prayers can only come from the living. This is one thing that I feel that we are just going to have to agree to disagree on, among other things.

 

[Lorraine]

As a Catholic I think discussions like this are helpful from both perspectives. Non-catholics get to pose questions they would not normally ask someone in person and they also avoid living life assuming why we do what we do. We Catholics get an idea of how our practice is perceived by others and are able to help people understand (I was unaware there were so many Catholics on the board). I am happy to be Catholic and share my faith with my future husband who is non-Catholic. We have a very healthy dialogue and when I cannot answer a question for him or want to provide the best information possible so he understands (some things really are hard to articulate if you are non-Catholic) I refer to web sites as Tai recommended to some of you earlier. At the end of the day my fiance and I know we believe in one God, the giver the life, the ever lasting God. I believe the same can be said for each of us.

 

[pebbles]

And the last thing I want to add is, if one cannot or should not ask a Saint to pray to God for us, then why is it okay for people to come to the forum and ask someone else to pray to God for them? The same argument can be made that no one can pray for someone else, that one should always go directly to God. I don't see the difference.

There is a difference. The saints that have died are dead, and the bible says that the dead have no knowledge of the things of earth once they're dead. Ecc 9: 4-6 says:

For the living know that they will die,

but the dead know nothing;

they have no further reward,

and even the memory of them is forgotten.

Their love, their hate

and their jealousy have long since vanished;

never again will they have a part

in anything that happens under the sun.

This is why there is no doctrine to support the practice of asking the dead saints to intercede for you to God. It's not biblical. The bible says it doesn't happen.

But the bible does say that we are to pray for one another. James 5: 13-18 says:
Is any one of you in trouble? He should pray. Is anyone happy? Let him sing songs of praise. Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.

Hope that explains it a bit more clearly.

 

[Tai]

Thanks Pebbles but this has been pointed out repeatedly in this thread. We all know the stance against including saints in prayer. As I said in an earlier post, this is one thing that Catholics and non Catholics will agree to disagree on.

There is a difference. The saints that have died are dead, and the bible says that the dead have no knowledge of the things of earth once they're dead. Ecc 9: 4-6 says:

For the living know that they will die,

but the dead know nothing;

they have no further reward,

and even the memory of them is forgotten.

Their love, their hate

and their jealousy have long since vanished;

never again will they have a part

in anything that happens under the sun.

This is why there is no doctrine to support the practice of asking the dead saints to intercede for you to God. It's not biblical. The bible says it doesn't happen.

But the bible does say that we are to pray for one another. James 5: 13-18 says:
Is any one of you in trouble? He should pray. Is anyone happy? Let him sing songs of praise. Is any one of you sick? He should call the elders of the church to pray over him and anoint him with oil in the name of the Lord. And the prayer offered in faith will make the sick person well; the Lord will raise him up. If he has sinned, he will be forgiven. Therefore confess your sins to each other and pray for each other so that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.

Hope that explains it a bit more clearly.

 

[MeccaMedinah]

I also have some questions. What is the Pope's significance? It seems that he is worshipped; I heard on the news that if he dies the Catholic church will be in disarray. Also why are rosary beads so important? They also appear to be an icon.

Ummm, ladies?

 

[pebbles]

Thanks Pebbles but this has been pointed out repeatedly in this thread. We all know the stance against including saints in prayer. As I said in an earlier post, this is one thing that Catholics and non Catholics will agree to disagree on.

Oh, I know, sweetie! I actually posted this again for Jessy55, in case she hadn't seen the previous post.

 

[pebbles]

I also have some questions. What is the Pope's significance? It seems that he is worshipped; I heard on the news that if he dies the Catholic church will be in disarray. Also why are rosary beads so important? They also appear to be an icon.

As a former Catholic, let me answer this as best as I can, and then if I'm wrong, someone else can correct me.

The Pope is not worshipped. As the head of the Catholic church, he is revered as their man of God and their leader. I'm not sure why the church would be in disarray since there are others in line who can succeed him. And the rosary beads are used while praying the rosary. Since the Catholics believe in praying to Mary, this falls in line with their doctrine, and is just a way for them to pray to Mary.

 

[DragonPearl]

Oh, I know, sweetie! I actually posted this again for Jessy55, in case she hadn't seen the previous post.

Actually, I saw the previous post. Most of the stances against including Saints in prayers is based on Old Testament creeds. The Old Testament says a great many things that no one observes or practices anymore. People have found all kinds of justifications for no longer following dietary and clothing codes, even though the Bible says that they should be followed. Even on the subject of divorce, most Christians are not following the Bible. But I digress...

That's why I said that Jesus himself, unless I am mistaken, never said that the dead cannot affect the living and do not communicate with the living. As Vintage pointed out, did not Peter see Jesus on the mount talking with Moses and Elias?


Mt. 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. Mt. 17:4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[Edie]

Actually, I saw the previous post. Most of the stances against including Saints in prayers is based on Old Testament creeds. The Old Testament says a great many things that no one observes or practices anymore. People have found all kinds of justifications for no longer following dietary and clothing codes, even though the Bible says that they should be followed. Even on the subject of divorce, most Christians are not following the Bible. But I digress...

That's why I said that Jesus himself, unless I am mistaken, never said that the dead cannot affect the living and do not communicate with the living. As Vintage pointed out, did not Peter see Jesus on the mount talking with Moses and Elias?


Mt. 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him. Mt. 17:4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Remember that when Jesus arose from the grave after His crucifixion, He visited the graves and revived all the dead saints. It even states that a lot of the old saints were seen walking upon the earth at that time.

That is why Peter was able to see Jesus talking to both Moses and Elias. They had been resurrected. All the saints that have died since Jesus crucifixion are still sleeping (dead) and will not arise until Christ's second coming. Then all shall be awaken at the sound of a triumphant and the dead in Christ shall arise. So if you are talking about any saint's that died after Christ died, well they are still in their graves and cannot help you in answer to your prayers.

 

[DragonPearl]

Remember that when Jesus arose from the grave after His crucifixion, He visited the graves and revived all the dead saints. It even states that a lot of the old saints were seen walking upon the earth at that time.

That is why Peter was able to see Jesus talking to both Moses and Elias. They had been resurrected. All the saints that have died since Jesus crucifixion are still sleeping (dead) and will not arise until Christ's second coming. Then all shall be awaken at the sound of a triumphant and the dead in Christ shall arise. So if you are talking about any saint's that died after Christ died, well they are still in their graves and cannot help you in answer to your prayers.

Interesting interpretation.

The Bible is a fascinating book. All kinds of people read the same thing and interpret it differently. That's why we have thousands of denominations under the name of Christians. You do not know for a fact that I have not been helped in answer to my prayers because you are not in my life. I think it is spiritual arrogance to tell someone that their spiritual experience is not valid, based on your own interpretation, which is only 1 out of thousand interpretations.

Peace.

 

[Edie]

Interesting interpretation.

The Bible is a fascinating book. All kinds of people read the same thing and interpret it differently. That's why we have thousands of denominations under the name of Christians. You do not know for a fact that I have not been helped in answer to my prayers because you are not in my life. I think it is spiritual arrogance to tell someone that their spiritual experience is not valid, based on your own interpretation, which is only 1 out of thousand interpretations.

Peace.

I am not basing what I am telling you on interpretation. If you can show me anywhere in the bible where someone prayed to a dead saint and had their prayer answered, please tell me where I can find this information.

If the information is not in bible, I cannot make assumptions and neither should anyone else.

 

[Tai]

Ladies, I suggest that we agree to disagree before this goes any further. For those who disagree about including saints in prayer, the answer is very simple. Don't do it. Those who do, will continue to do so. Religion is more than just what's in the Bible. Some of us are fine with that; other are not. Praise in the way that suits you best but respect the differences that you don't understand or agree with because that is what you'd like in return.

 

[DragonPearl]

I am not basing what I am telling you on interpretation. If you can show me anywhere in the bible where someone prayed to a dead saint and had their prayer answered, please tell me where I can find this information.

If the information is not in bible, I cannot make assumptions and neither should anyone else.

I am not sure I understand your point. Is the Bible supposed to have all the possible examples of prayers being answered and all the ways that one can pray? And if it's not there, then too bad, it is not valid? That thinking implies that if a particular prayer case/situation is indeed in the Bible, then we all should be able to use. Well, in the Bible, Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead. Does that mean that if we pray to Jesus now, he will raise from the dead someone who died yesterday?

 

[pebbles]

I've seen threads on the other forums degenerate into ugliness, but I'll be truly disappointed if on a Christianity forum, we can't have a discussion without it turning ugly. Whether we agree or not, let's do it in a way that brings glory to the Father. :Rose:

 

[DragonPearl]

Ladies, I suggest that we agree to disagree before this goes any further. For those who disagree about including saints in prayer, the answer is very simple. Don't do it. Those who do, will continue to do so. Religion is more than just what's in the Bible. Some of us are fine with that; other are not. Praise in the way that suits you best but respect the differences that you don't understand or agree with because that is what you'd like in return.

Yes, I think I am going to take your advice and just bow out of this thread.

 

[pebbles]

Is the Bible supposed to have all the possible examples of prayers being answered and all the ways that one can pray? And if it's not there, then too bad, it is not valid?

For many of us, the answer to this question is yes. The bible tells us how we are to pray, and we don't add, subtract or deviate.

That thinking implies that if a particular prayer case/situation is indeed in the Bible, then we all should be able to use. Well, in the Bible, Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead. Does that mean that if we pray to Jesus now, he will raise from the dead someone who died yesterday?

I'm not sure I understand what you mean by this. Can you clarify a bit?

 

[Tai]

Pebbles, who told us how to pray before there was a Bible? Christianity and prayer were in existance long before the Bible was written. I am, too, Jessy, bowing out of this thread. I focus more about the similarities that I share with other Christians, instead of our differences. I praise God in the way that He called me and I have no shame. All I can do is encourage others to do the same.

 

[Edie]

I am not sure I understand your point. Is the Bible supposed to have all the possible examples of prayers being answered and all the ways that one can pray? And if it's not there, then too bad, it is not valid? That thinking implies that if a particular prayer case/situation is indeed in the Bible, then we all should be able to use. Well, in the Bible, Jesus raised Lazarus from the dead. Does that mean that if we pray to Jesus now, he will raise from the dead someone who died yesterday?

I am not trying to imply anything. I am using going by what the bible says. And Jesus does give us an example of how to pray. It starts "Our Father who art in Heaven".

So there is no room for interpretation. Interpretations are merely ones own understanding and in the old testament it says for us not to trust our own understanding. Jesus told us that if we have faith as a mustard seed, we can move mountains by simply telling them to move. Well sister I can tell you now. I haven't moved a mountain yet and I doubt anyone here has. All I am trying to say is that when I stand before God and he asks me why I did this and this and that in my walk as a christian, I want to be able to point to His word and say "Because your word says so". That's why if it is not written in the bible I will not and cannot base my faith or faith practices on it. That is the Word and Authority of God. What you or anyone else chooses to do is up to you. Like a lot of ladies on this board don't understand why you pray to saints and told their viewpoints, I did the same. All I asked is for you to tell me where in the bible a dead saint was prayed to and the prayer answered.
Like one of the other members said, we can agree to disagree.


Peace!

 

[pebbles]

Pebbles, who told us how to pray before there was a Bible? Christianity and prayer were in existance long before the Bible was written. I am, too, Jessy, bowing out of this thread. I focus more about the similarities that I share with other Christians, instead of our differences. I praise God in the way that He called me and I have no shame. All I can do is encourage others to do the same.

Before the bible was written, God was still directing His people. And to take it a step further, if there were another way before God made His way known, I personally would discount it. But we can all agree to disagree. There's nothing wrong with that.

As an aside, I am truly sorry that this topic is upsetting people. The point of the thread is to point out differences and discuss why we practice or believe certain things. We're not here to bash each other. In the end, do we all believe Jesus is Lord and Savior? Yes! And that's the most important part. I'm really sad that the general tone of the entire forum is spilling into the Christianity forum as well.

 

[Tai]

I know I said I was leaving this thread but I feel like I have to respond to Pebbles' last statement.

For me, it's not the topic that is distrubing, it's the tone in the responses. When including saints in prayer was answered, it was met with people who wanted to argue staying that it shouldn't be done and that there was no point in praying to saints. I felt that was unnecessary. If you don't agree with it, simply don't do it. None of the Catholics that responded stated that anyone else should do any of our practices. It seems that whenever Catholics are brought up, there's this attitude that we don't worship the right way because we do somethings differently from non-Catholics. I felt that the overlying tone was that Catholic beliefs and practices are wrong. That is what annoyed me.

We are more alike than we are different and that seems to be a fact that many people seem to forget. Do we not know that Christianity is much like a tree with many branches that all lead back to common roots?

 

[Country gal]

I haven't read this whole thread but I do agree with Tai. I know in my personal life, I come across the Catholics are so different when reallyu I don't think we are. All churches have rituals, practices.

I know I said I was leaving this thread but I feel like I have to respond to Pebbles' last statement.

For me, it's not the topic that is distrubing, it's the tone in the responses. When including saints in prayer was answered, it was met with people who wanted to argue staying that it shouldn't be done and that there was no point in praying to saints. I felt that was unnecessary. If you don't agree with it, simply don't do it. None of the Catholics that responded stated that anyone else should do any of our practices. It seems that whenever Catholics are brought up, there's this attitude that we don't worship the right way because we do somethings differently from non-Catholics. I felt that the overlying tone was that Catholic beliefs and practices are wrong. That is what annoyed me.

We are more alike than we are different and that seems to be a fact that many people seem to forget. Do we not know that Christianity is much like a tree with many branches that all lead back to common roots?

 

[pebbles]

I know I said I was leaving this thread but I feel like I have to respond to Pebbles' last statement.

For me, it's not the topic that is distrubing, it's the tone in the responses. When including saints in prayer was answered, it was met with people who wanted to argue staying that it shouldn't be done and that there was no point in praying to saints. I felt that was unnecessary. If you don't agree with it, simply don't do it. None of the Catholics that responded stated that anyone else should do any of our practices. It seems that whenever Catholics are brought up, there's this attitude that we don't worship the right way because we do somethings differently from non-Catholics. I felt that the overlying tone was that Catholic beliefs and practices are wrong. That is what annoyed me.

We are more alike than we are different and that seems to be a fact that many people seem to forget. Do we not know that Christianity is much like a tree with many branches that all lead back to common roots?

Tai, I am sorry that you found this all upsetting, but I was simply backing up my point with scripture, as were others. I didn't suggest that anyone leave what they were doing, that's a personal decision between them and God. I was simply saying that the practice is not supported by scripture. That wasn't intended to offend anyone, I was contributing to the conversation. I was Catholic for 21 years of my life, and there were somethings that made no sense to me and I looked into them to find the sources of the practice, and I continue to do the same in my current church. There's nothing wrong with looking into why something is done or not. I have stated repeatedly that we do have in common the fact that we all believe Jesus Christ to be Lord and Savior. This is an interesting, thought provoking conversation, and it's not intended to offend. I can understand, though, if you choose not to continue. That's ok.

 

[Vintagecoilylocks]

I had a long week in court protecting my rights and my home, that was draining but thanking the Lord its over.

Will continue with some of the questions. The Eastern and Western terms used are not a denomination. They were due to geographical references. Constantine moved his seat for the Empire to what is now Istambul thus establishing the eastern empire. The east used Greek and the assyrian languages and the west most church was Rome. But as in the bible they were all the same. After the Islamic invasion literally cut off the two geographic areas of the world the reference stuck. The Eastern church was trapped under the rule of Islam. The Church to the west also meaning what remained in North africa was in the west. Eventually Christianity was crushed all across the west african Continent with only small remaining pockets with churchs surviving in the middle east to this day. This only left Rome and the faithful in Europe free. This was also when the roman empire was on its final days and left no one power in place. Sadly this isolation between the faithful did cause rise to some differences. One main point in particular riffed the church in 1045. Of course some contact was made but no more councils were allowed or any major meeting to strengthen each. The West as well as the East know this riff. But as much as they were separated the essential doctrine remained intact. They are not a denomination of each other. But if you say that a few organizational differences constitute a denomination and the East and west church calls it a riff in an understanding then that means the protestants have 20,000 -30,000 riffs and differences why the protestants felt the need to have started new and different denominations.

How ever the protestants are torn on doctrine. It was not and is not a few organizational differences. With so many how can they be so slightly different. Calvism is different than arminianism. You can see stark differences on this forum of the beliefs in the essentials of faith. Two denominations compared to 30,000 that is different.

The catholics say in heresy but no Catholic East or West in authority will ever teach that protestants are not Christians. That is not what they say. For the Body of Christ is not determined by the building. When I refer to the Church, as in confession, no you would not turn to a non christian and consider them part of the church.

The West church needed their system of non-married priest yet eastern churches under the west still have married priest because the same problems did not arise. Just as the Eastern Church was not effected by the reformation. The same difficulties had not arose in those areas of the world. Luther had issues with the things brought into the western church that did not follow God,,tradition of the apostles or scripture. How ever Luther never changed essential of the spiritual doctrine as many of the new protestants at that time did. Luther also never meant to start new different churches either. I believe that came after his death or not of his doing. The church in England broke from Rome because the king ordered it due to his desire to divorce his wife and marry his mistress thus the New Church of England. Not a very spiritual reason at all.

The priest is a representation of the rest of the faithful and a sign to all that whom ever comes forward for communion has confessed to God. When we sin we sin against Jesus. The Church is the body of Christ so we have sinned against the whole church so we are asking forgiveness of Jesus and the Church as one.

Yes the Catholics do believe that there is a spiritual life after death and not one of unconsciousness or unawareness. In the verse that was sited by Peebles ICor 15:51-55 one must realize this is Paul speaking and therefore would not contridict himself. One also should read the verse in context with the entirety of the verses before it starting with verse 35. They are asking about the physical body and the resurrection and Paul deals with it.through to verse 55. In Romans Pauls is talking of the spiritual man Romans 5:21. This is the gosepel. The promise of everlasting life. No mention of a spiritual separation from Christ at all. Romans 6:4 We were buried with him in babtism into death that like Christ was raised up from th dead by the Glory of God even so we also should walk in the newness of life. Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ we believe we shall also live with him. 6:9 Knowing that Christ was raised from the dead and dieth no more; death has no more dominion over him. 6:10 For that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God. 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead to sin but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 6:13 Neither yeild your members as instruments of un righteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as that those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. 6:20-21, 6:22,23 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. There is the physical death of the body which is also termed falling asleep by Paul and Jesus. Mark 5:31 Jesus says that the girl is only sleeping and then raised her up. We are not ever told in the bible we must suffer a separation spiritually from
Christ. Paul shows his belief in a spiritual life after "falling asleep" in IICor5:5-8
....vs6 Therefore we are confident to know while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord.vs7 For we walk by faith not by site. vs8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. Again he states in Philippians1:21-24 For me to live is Christ and to die gain. But I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better; never the less to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.
Why would Paul be anxious to die and spend some indeterminent time in some unconscious state unaware of all things? He believed that he would be with the Lord separated from his body not Jesus. I Cor is speaking of the resurrection of the Body. Paul also states this I Thes 4:15-18 He explains that the ones who will still be alive shall not prevent those who are sleep ... for the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then the change of thoe who are alive as referred to in I Cor 15:51-55. This is the resurrection of the body. Paul can not be contridicting himself saying he would be with the Lord when he dies and also saying he would have to wait to be with the Lord til the resurrection. Christ showed us that the spirit does not wait. He spoke of The rich man talking to Abraham after he died. Luke 16:19-31 The Lord refers to how" Abraham rejoiced in his day to see his day and he saw it"
Abraham had already died how would the Lord know he rejoiced and how could he rejoice if he was not aware of what was happening on earth. Jn8:56 The Lord speaks of how He appoints unto you a kingdom That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom and sit on throwns and judge the twelve tribes of Israel. Luke 22:29-30. It would seem some saints will be there ahead of at least the tribes of Israel to be appointed to judge.
The Lord promised the thief on the cross that "today " he would be with him in paradise. Not three days hence or sometime later but that day. luke23:43 The Lord committed his spirit to God before he died. Luke 23:46 His body was placed in the tomb. Luke23:53 His body rose on the third day as with many saints bodies Mathew27:52-53.
Revelations gives many vs. showing the saints in heaven singing and giving praises in the Triumphant Church in heaven. Rev4:4,10-11, Rev 5:8,9,11,14. The martyered saints spoke to the Lord Rev 6:9-11.
We are told of the the heavenly Jerusalem Hebrews 12:22-24.
Though Christ is prophesied in the old testament the good news came with Christ. Ecclesiates can not possibly the end all and the explaination of the gospel of Jesus Christ. There is even doubt of the actual author of the Book most likely Solomon. That one verse can not teach all that Christ came for.


Reference Mary, It was the angel of the Lord who greeted her according to the Lords command. "Hail that thou art highly favoured, the Lord is with thee, blessed art thou among woman."Luke 1:28 And it was Elizabeth which greeted Mary as Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit " Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb" Luke1:42. God Choose Mary and prompted these greetings and salutations. We only repeat these. We also sing Mary's song of praise to God Luke1:45-55.