I called my married brofriend a HYPOCRITE because of my singleness angst....

[PaperClip]

Was I wrong? (Don't answer that! I wasn't wrong REGARDLESS!)

This is a friend from college I've known a good while. He remarried recently (maybe two years ago). He's been a friend and sounding board when I've had bad days re. singleness. But this is the first time he's said this. Here are the emails from our exchange:

Him: Can't you find fulfillment in Christ?

Me: With all due respect, I've been asked and I've answered this question ad nauseum. And you've kindly shared with me more than once about the pleasures and perils of marriage. I also think that when married folk ask these kinds of questions about fulfillment, it reeks of hypocrisy. So I think the lesson for me here is to find other ways to manage (hopefuly in a healthy way) the angst about this subject matter.

Him: HIpocrisy? How? Well, you are grown as you have stated. And I hope you doing what's pleasing to God. It;s up to you.

Me: Hypocrisy in that you said to me out of your own mouth that you knew that you couldn't stay single for a long time. What happened to you being fulfilled outside of marriage? What's your answer when you turn that question on yourself? And your tone here is a bit mocking... as if to say if I was doing everything pleasing to God then I wouldn't have all this turmoil. That's hurtful.

Him: NO No please don;t think that I am being hurtful. I'm not. And forgive me if it comes off that way. I would never embarrass you. You are right...I have said that I knew I couldn't stay single. I HAD to have a wife. I NEED SEX.. NEED IT. And I don't play the five-knuckle shuffle!!!!! But as a man, I can approach women and analyze whether I want to date them and marry them. But as a woman, it is wise for you to be found. That's the difference. I know you have asked GOd about this. What has GOD said to you in response to your frustration?


Me: That's a cop out and you gotta know that on some level. I'm really surprised right now. Women want and need sex, too. Men and women can live celibate lives, too. Is there anything in the Bible that says that men have extra permission to fulfill their sexual desires and women just have to suffer? You're right. You made a choice to get married. I should have that same choice as well. You're also right in that you can just freely go and find a wife but between the Bible and society, the woman is supposed to sit back and be found. It's a wicked arrangement, esp. when it makes me look like I'm deficient, disabled, unworthy because a man has yet to ask me to marry him.

Him: The sex reference was not saying that women shouldn't be want that too. Say if I never found a women I thought was compatible, then I'd have to face the possibility of being single and could I live with it? YES! I'm OK with it. THAT was my point

Him: I'm not saying that men can do things woman can. You spun that one. But here lies the problem: "esp. when it makes me look like I'm deficient, disabled, unworthy because a man has yet to ask me to marry him."

WHERE WHY AND HOW DOES NOT BEING ASKED OUT EQUATE DEFICIENCY??????

That;s where it seems you are falling in a rut. It does not.


Me: "But as a man, I can approach women and analyze whether I want to date them and marry them. But as a woman, it is wise for you to be found. That's the difference."

That's what you just said. That implies that men CAN do things that women CANNOT do. You know how it is deficient? Imagine your current wife had rejected your marriage proposal. It seems deficient because it seems that a part of my life that I really want cannot happen unless/until marriage happens. Can't have sex until marriage. Gotta have sex to make a baby. That's all connected, according to the Bible.

So the further this goes along, well.... Well.... I don't want to say how painful...how unbearable that could be.

Him: didn't say you can not, I said it is WISE to be found. You can do what you want. But You better please God. You in a hurry fir something you can;t possibly know about.

Me: And you should recognize the cruelty in mocking my desires by implying that I are wrong for wanting something that you have (whether it's good or bad or otherwise). So why is it so wise to be found?


End of email exchange. What say you?

 

[inthepink]

Were you wrong? No, you were right.

I think this happens a lot. (Some) married people (whether male or female) try to tell us single people to just be happy and find contentment in the Lord and to use our time to serve the Lord...blah blah blah. Yet, they are sooooo happy that they are married and are not saying the same things to themselves.

It's so frustrating. It's insulting.

It's like saying "Sorry, you can't have what I have so you better just be happy with what you got." Yet, when they were in our situation, it was a completely different story.

This is why I am so over discussing singleness with friends.

 

[PaperClip]

Were you wrong? No, you were right.

I think this happens a lot. (Some) married people (whether male or female) try to tell us single people to just be happy and find contentment in the Lord and to use our time to serve the Lord...blah blah blah. Yet, they are sooooo happy that they are married and are not saying the same things to themselves.

It's so frustrating. It's insulting.

It's like saying "Sorry, you can't have what I have so you better just be happy with what you got." Yet, when they were in our situation, it was a completely different story.

This is why I am so over discussing singleness with friends.

But did you catch the point where he said because he's a man, he has the "biblical freedom", if you will, to seek and find wife....

 

[inthepink]

But did you catch the point where he said because he's a man, he has the "biblical freedom", if you will, to seek and find wife....

Yes, I did catch that.

 

[msa]

But did you catch the point where he said because he's a man, he has the "biblical freedom", if you will, to seek and find wife....

Ok I'm only 23...but can I say how annoying that mantra is? Seriously seriously annoying.

I'm young, I want to have fun, meet people, and have a fulfilling life as a single person in the eyes of God. But if one more person tells me that in all my single-having fun-living that I'm not even supposed to be thinking about getting married until some man broaches the subject I am going to scream.

I'm supposed to be actively preparing for marriage but in that time I'm not supposed to surround myself with men (and female friends) who are doing the same? That doesn't make sense to me.

 

[discobiscuits]

between the Bible and society, the woman is supposed to sit back and be found

And that is the problem I have with the interpretation of that "find" concept = the "sit back" part. Too many people thing that they have to wait or sit and wait or what have you. Someone said it in a different thread: "men enjoy their single state" (the need for sex notwithstanding as each man handles that differently).

I'm sick of women sitting back and/or waiting while their lives pass them by. And I'm not talking about achieving education, buying homes, etc. I'm talking about the sense of or the perception by others of:

makes me look like I'm deficient, disabled, unworthy

It makes me angry that people assume that if a woman is not married she is the above but it also makes me angry that women do not maximize and enjoy their unmarried state.

Women can still "wait to be found" but have fun and also be fulfulled as well as appear fulfilled (to others on the outside).

Not directed at the OP, just in general.

Grrrrrr.

Your bro-friend has some good, valid points.
ETA: except for the "biblical freedom" comment.

The concept of waiting to be found does support this comment:

That implies that men CAN do things that women CANNOT do.

According to society and the bible as you put it, women can't be the initiators, approachers or pursuers only men can be. And the bible is replete with men having the ability to do things women can't do. It is a double standard, but perhaps it all began with the punishments rendered in the garden. Women appear to be easily deceived so maybe some things that are now permissible for women to do may not be good for some women to do.

I dunno, but I see your frustration w/ your friend.

 

[PaperClip]

Quote:
makes me look like I'm deficient, disabled, unworthy


It makes me angry that people assume that if a woman is not married she is the above but it also makes me angry that women do not maximize and enjoy their unmarried state.

Women can still "wait to be found" but have fun and also be fulfulled as well as appear fulfilled (to others on the outside).

Not directed at the OP, just in general.

Grrrrrr.

Your bro-friend has some good, valid points.

1star: I've gotten past the shame to admit that I felt that way for SO LONG. I didn't start my adult life that way. It's like my parents started me off with great self-esteem but I allowed the church's image of marriage and singleness to erase and dump on all that good self-esteem I had.... I'm just starting to get that back.... (I've shared this in other threads so I won't rehash that part).

Exactly what good points did you see? Because when he said "I knew I couldn't be single for long because I need sex so I got (re)married" pretty much erased anything sensible he might have said.

 

[discobiscuits]

I edited while you were posting.....

 

[discobiscuits]

Exactly what good points did you see? Because when he said "I knew I couldn't be single for long because I need sex so I got (re)married" pretty much erased anything sensible he might have said.

That one quote there. The Apostle Paul said it is better to marry than burn in lust. And also:

"WHERE WHY AND HOW DOES NOT BEING ASKED OUT EQUATE DEFICIENCY??????"

It does not equate deficiency, but other people presume it to be a deficiency as women age whether or not the woman herself equates it that way.

"You in a hurry fir something you can;t possibly know about."

I say this latter one is valid because while his comment may or may not apply to you (he was directing it to you based on his personal relationship with you but it may not apply) it does apply to most unmarried people - they don't know what marriage to another imperfect person truly entails.

 

[PaperClip]

I edited while you were posting.....

His consistent message to me is to wait and do it God's way. And I understand why he's saying that. But for him to fix his mouth to say to me to wait but he didn't wait (and for him to say he has an option that I do not, strictly biblically speaking) is straight bonkers.

 

[PaperClip]

Quote:
Originally Posted by FoxyScholar
Exactly what good points did you see? Because when he said "I knew I couldn't be single for long because I need sex so I got (re)married" pretty much erased anything sensible he might have said.

That one quote there. The Apostle Paul said it is better to marry than burn in lust. And also:

I understand all this but (and I said this to him) that he has LOST any kind of credibility in challenging me to wait when he did not and he could have.... Couldn't he believe the Lord to fulfill him (sexually) just like he's challenging me to do the same?

Yes, I can go out and do something lawful (go and find a brother to marry) but it would not be expedient (esp. if it's not the right choice, spiritually or naturally).

 

[discobiscuits]

Couldn't he believe the Lord to fulfill him (sexually) just like he's challenging me to do the same?

Nah, I don't think so (Based on what I said earlier about each persion being different and his/her ability to handle that issue plus the word supports his decision/postion). But that is my opinion.

BTW, I'm still LOLing @ your title because I swore it read: "I called my married boyfriend a HYPOCRITE because of my singleness angst...."

 

[PaperClip]

Nah, I don't think so. But that is my opinion.

BTW, I'm still LOLing @ your title because I swore it read: "I called my married boyfriend a HYPOCRITE because of my singleness angst...."


[/color]

LOL! Um... ... I ain't trying to go to HELL behind somebody's husband!

We went to undergrad together and he said I acted like Hillary Banks from Fresh Prince of Bel-Air... in other words, he couldn't AFFORD me!

And you seriously don't think that the Lord can be fulfill a man's sexual desires the same as a woman? I get that men have different sexual appetites/drives but at the same time, where in the Bible did the Lord have a gender bias in terms of fasting, sacrifice, consecration? Whoa... that's worth a whole conversation (esp. w/some single brothers).

 

[discobiscuits]

No, I don't think the Lord can fulfill anyone's sexual desires because sexual desire/s is/are natural, not spiritual and they cannot be turned on or off. Those desires are instilled in us by God. They can be controlled naturally by our mind and our spirit with the help of the Spirit (Holy) by making natural decisions that facilitate focusing that energy in other, positive, Godly directions.

Again, just my opinion. I'm open.

 

[PaperClip]

No, I don't think the Lord can fulfill anyone's sexual desires because sexual desire/s is/are natural, not spiritual and they cannot be turned on or off. Those desires are instilled in us by God. They can be controlled naturally by our mind and our spirit with the help of the Spirit (Holy) by making natural decisions that facilitate focusing that energy in other, positive, Godly directions.

Again, just my opinion. I'm open.

I hear what you're saying about natural, healthy sexual expression. There's a difference between healthy abstinence and suppression. It may also help to define "fulfill"....

To me, fulfilled doesn't mean free of a sexual appetite or that there won't be any sexual frustrations. Where's the point of decision where one says "Yes, I want to have sex but since I'm not married, I cannot so what do I do to relieve get through this struggle?"

You know what? I think it comes down to a point of obedience. The word says no fornication. It actually says "flee fornication". So would the Lord ask us something of us that was not possible? Would He ask something of us that He did not/could not do in His earthly body?

 

[Bunny77]

I'm with ya FS!

 

[discobiscuits]

I hear what you're saying about natural, healthy sexual expression. There's a difference between healthy abstinence and suppression. It may also help to define "fulfill"....

I'm not talking about suppressing anything. I do not support suppressing or repressing sexual desires.

You know what? I think it comes down to a point of obedience. The word says no fornication. It actually says "flee fornication". So would the Lord ask us something of us that was not possible? Would He ask something of us that He did not/could not do in His earthly body?

I agree and that is why I said redirect that energy, not suppress or repress it.

Also, men's sexual drive/desires are different from women's biologically/scientifically so that too has to be taken into consideration.

Paul's instruction to flee fornication and to marry than burn applies to men and women.

Regarding the bold: I too think like that but then He was Jesus (100% sinless) and we are not so it is not the same for us though I believe that we can strive for and some of us can succeed at doing what Jesus did as it relates to resisting or controlling our innate, God-given sexual desires.

 

[aribell]

I understand all this but (and I said this to him) that he has LOST any kind of credibility in challenging me to wait when he did not and he could have.... Couldn't he believe the Lord to fulfill him (sexually) just like he's challenging me to do the same?

Yes, I can go out and do something lawful (go and find a brother to marry) but it would not be expedient (esp. if it's not the right choice, spiritually or naturally).

FS, I don't think you were wrong in the feelings you expressed. I don't think your friend could at all really understand where you're coming from given different biblical and cultural expectations of men and women, as well as the fact that he's not had to deal with unwanted singleness for a long period of time.

Still, I don't think he should have lost credibility in challenging you to wait. It doesn't sound like he was saying you should do something that he didn't or couldn't do, but that he, given the biblical/cultural role of men in dating, did what he, scripturally, could do to satisfy his sexual desires and happened to be successful, and you can do the same. The only thing is that the biblical/cultural role of the woman is to be found rather than to pursue. It seems this point is why he said that you could, of course, choose not to do it the biblical way (if you do believe that's the biblical way) and go out and find something for yourself on your own terms, but the question is whether it would be at the expense of doing things God's way.

It's not fair at all. Not only is he able to be the chooser and initiator, but he doesn't have to deal with the perceptions and self-doubt of women who are single that you mentioned. Still, I didn't read hypocrisy in what he said, only a challenge to remain faithful to God's way of doing things and to accept whatever comes of that.

 

[PaperClip]

I'm not talking about suppressing anything. I do not support suppressing or repressing sexual desires.



I agree and that is why I said redirect that energy, not suppress or repress it.

Well, redirecting could be considered a repression....

Also, men's sexual drive/desires are different from women's biologically/scientifically so that too has to be taken into consideration.

Different, not higher or lower. And again, does the Bible provide direction for this in terms of giving men permission to have sex outside of marriage?

Paul's instruction to flee fornication and to marry than burn applies to men and women.

Regarding the bold: I too think like that but then He was Jesus (100% sinless) and we are not so it is not the same for us though I believe that we can strive for and some of us can succeed at doing what Jesus did as it relates to resisting or controlling our innate, God-given sexual desires.

Was the earthly Jesus sinless because of his divinity or decision-making?

 

[discobiscuits]

WRT this:

To me, fulfilled doesn't mean free of a sexual appetite or that there won't be any sexual frustrations. Where's the point of decision where one says "Yes, I want to have sex but since I'm not married, I cannot so what do I do to relieve get through this struggle?"

I don't see fleeing fornication or the decision to not engage in any form of sexual activity as frustration or struggle. It is only so if we make it so or allow it to be so, imo. A lot of times people get frustrated because they don't flee fornication. This includes things that present fornication or sexual situations like music, tv shows (even seemingly innocuous one like The Game et. al.), movies (Even Tyler Perry movies LOL), books, even the mere discussion of sex.

We all know that what causes one believer to fall or fail is not the same thing or area another one can fall or fail in. Since failure is a permitted response, it is something that we have full control of even more so because we have the HS.

Honestly, FS I'm unmarried too and for me (again, we are all different) I no longer experience some of the things that several unmarried sisters here have or do including the sexual frustration. In the past I used to try to suppress or repress certain desires and I found that it was harmful to do so (for me). After a message that my retired pastor's wife taught, I made the decision to embrace those desires, and experience them but not act on them and not judge them to be wrong or sinful.

IMO, some believers (not you or people here) wrongly categorize their sexual desires as sinful or as temptation or what have you. Then they react accordingly praying to have the desires removed or suppressed or again, what have you. Her message was freeing and a blessing b/c I was able to rejoice that I did have those desires and that they were strong and that if I choose to marry I can exercise them. I think that women suffer with this more than men. I think that the church and society can sometimes inadvertently make women feel inadequate or wrong for they way we feel and the desires we have particularly sexual desires that are natural and good to have and completely controllable.

*sigh* I don't think I'm making sense or being clear but I'm trying.

 

[discobiscuits]

Was the earthly Jesus sinless because of his divinity or decision-making?

Because of his decision making.

 

[PaperClip]

You're doing great! This is a good conversation and we're all having an interesting and thought-provoking dialogue....

WRT this:
I don't see fleeing fornication or the decision to not engage in any form of sexual activity as frustration or struggle. It is only so if we make it so or allow it to be so, imo. A lot of times people get frustrated because they don't flee fornication. This includes things that present fornication or sexual situations like music, tv shows (even seemingly innocuous one like The Game et. al.), movies (Even Tyler Perry movies LOL), books, even the mere discussion of sex.

Hear you and agree with this! I definitely monitor what I read, hear, and see, and be around. True story: a brother at my church, had a crush on him a LONG TIME ago (got over it when he got married...he didn't stay married long and apparently he's gotten around to some of the other sisters at church but still, he's cute and can hold a conversation. So one day before service a bunch of us were around joking and something came up about holy kissing and he started reaching for me talking about "come on over here so we can kiss" so I was laughing and moving AWAY from him like "I can't even play like that". He wasn't offended 'cause he understood.

We all know that what causes one believer to fall or fail is not the same thing or area another one can fall or fail in. Since failure is a permitted response, it is something that we have full control of even more so because we have the HS.

Agree that we have different threshholds and triggers and it goes back to your first paragraph about being careful of what we expose ourselves to....

Honestly, FS I'm unmarried too and for me (again, we are all different) I no longer experience some of the things that several unmarried sisters here have or do including the sexual frustration. In the past I used to try to suppress or repress certain desires and I found that it was harmful to do so (for me). After a message that my retired pastor's wife taught, I made the decision to embrace those desires, and experience them but not act on them and not judge them to be wrong or sinful.

IMO, some believers (not you or people here) wrongly categorize their sexual desires as sinful or as temptation or what have you. Then they react accordingly praying to have the desires removed or suppressed or again, what have you. Her message was freeing and a blessing b/c I was able to rejoice that I did have those desires and that they were strong and that if I choose to marry I can exercise them. I think that women suffer with this more than men. I think that the church and society can sometimes inadvertently make women feel inadequate or wrong for they way we feel and the desires we have particularly sexual desires that are natural and good to have and completely controllable.

*sigh* I don't think I'm making sense or being clear but I'm trying.

I would say that my sexual desires have gotten stronger or maybe they are the same but the way I used to deal with them before was to EAT, which, some say, mimics sexual feelings in the brain (triggering certain chemicals or something like that) but now that I am eating differently to remove the excess weight, it's finding the new, healthy balance.

I have heard friends and acquaintences talk about their struggles, too, even from being in church services where the sermon may focus on married couples and certain activities. I was in one church service where the speaker had all the married couples stand up and hug (totally legitimate request) but more than one single female cried all the way home because of the loneliness/sexual desire/desire for companionship. These are all intertwined.

It goes back to your first point about being careful to what one exposes him/herself to....

 

[envybeauty]

I agree with him.

Folks on here talk all the time about letting a man chase you. Women going out to chase leads to disaster. What he is saying is the same thing. He as a man can chase a woman while women cannot to have a truly successful relationship (overall).

 

[discobiscuits]

loneliness/sexual desire/desire for companionship. These are all intertwined.

see, that i disagree with. explain to me how, maybe my disagreement comes from a need to understand the context.


as it stands, i don't see lonliness and lack of companioship intertwined w/ sexual desire.

we saved women can have platonic male companionship and with or without men we do not have to experience lonliness. i think that sometimes the three are confused but i don't think they are intertwined.

lay it on me, explain what you are trying to get me to comprehend so i can see that concept through those eyes.

 

[PaperClip]

see, that i disagree with. explain to me how, maybe my disagreement comes from a need to understand the context.


as it stands, i don't see lonliness and lack of companioship intertwined w/ sexual desire.

we saved women can have platonic male companionship and with or without men we do not have to experience lonliness. i think that sometimes the three are confused but i don't think they are intertwined.

lay it on me, explain what you are trying to get me to comprehend so i can see that concept through those eyes.

Can a saved single woman have platonic male companionship? Hmmm... maybe, after consideration has been given to whether there's any chance of a romantic relationship (particularly if one is marriage-minded). So at 16-18, when I wasn't thinking about getting married, sure, I hung out with male and female friends and if some interest were expressed from one of the guys, I thought about it and was either yes or nah... and depending on how that info was conveyed, the guy either decided to keep it friendly or just moved on....

I think the three are intertwined (not at equal levels at equal times) but it's like a highway intersection, you cross one, go over another, etc. Sometimes a person wants to be held (by a man), sometimes one just wants nice, healthy company (male or female) to reduce loneliness. Sometimes it's that flesh crying out for sex (male). When one can get all three from one person (all at the same time), Eureka! LOL!

 

[discobiscuits]

I see your POV

 

[skatergurljubulee]

Ok I'm only 23...but can I say how annoying that mantra is? Seriously seriously annoying.

I'm young, I want to have fun, meet people, and have a fulfilling life as a single person in the eyes of God. But if one more person tells me that in all my single-having fun-living that I'm not even supposed to be thinking about getting married until some man broaches the subject I am going to scream.

I'm supposed to be actively preparing for marriage but in that time I'm not supposed to surround myself with men (and female friends) who are doing the same? That doesn't make sense to me.

You're not wrong for feeling this way. God doesn't want you sitting at home bored out of your mind when he's got friends for you to have good clean fun with. He wants you happy.
Many believe God has that man for them, right? Well, when I was single God said to just focus on him, live my life and the husband thing will be taken care of by him.
He did not tell me to sit at home and "wait" for DH to approach me. Nor did he tell me not to have Christian male friends.
I'm not saying I was a constant clubber or anything, but I didn't put my life on hold. I followed what God had planned for me. God wants us to live and enjoy life, not sit around and wait- at least not when it comes to what HE wants for your life.
HTH
ps- I HATED when married folks said that to me when I was single so now I go out of my way to try to stop that stickin' thinking.

 

[Valerie]

Foxy Scholar, I think that your friend is just wasting your time. Don't have any more discussions about waiting, marriage, your sexual urges or whatever. I have sent you a message.

 

[PaperClip]

Foxy Scholar, I think that your friend is just wasting your time. Don't have any more discussions about waiting, marriage, your sexual urges or whatever. I have sent you a message.

Uh oh! Valerie, when I read your post, I felt like I was in trouble!

 

[Bunny77]

Foxy Scholar, I think that your friend is just wasting your time. Don't have any more discussions about waiting, marriage, your sexual urges or whatever. I have sent you a message.

I agree... I now am very careful about the people whom I speak to about singleness... with the exception of this board, I keep my thoughts quiet and go about my business (and plans ) in an undercover way, because I really don't want or need to hear any outside commentary on this topic from certain groups of people.