Hobby Lobby Case

[Farida]

Ladies, I am very concerned about this case as they began oral arguments at the SCOTUS today. The outcome will have serious consequences for religious freedom or lack of thereof.

That being said I love the little I know about Hobby Lobby such as being closed on Sundays and the amount of money the ownership donates. I really think it shows you don't have to let all your principles go to have a thriving business.

 

[Galadriel]

Farida, I'm keeping an eye on it as well. I hope religious freedom is protected.

 

[Laela]

I've been keeping up with this case as well...

 

[loolalooh]

Slightly OT: I used to shop at Hobby Lobby all the time, and still do on occasion. That store is awesome! They are always closed on Sundays, and I never knew why until recently ... never knew that the owners are religious. That's good.

Back on topic: Keep us posted. I heard about it briefly ... off to read about it some more.

 

[momi]

Slightly OT: I used to shop at Hobby Lobby all the time, and still do on occasion. That store is awesome! They are always closed on Sundays, and I never knew why until recently ... never knew that the owners are religious. That's good.

Back on topic: Keep us posted. I heard about it briefly ... off to read about it some more.

Please do loolalooh - there is quite a bit of misinformation being circulated.

 

[LovelyRo]

I haven't been following this case! Thanks OP, I'm researching it now! I have great love for Hobby Lobby as my church received a huge donation from them in 2012!

 

[Browndilocks]

This case is radical irrationality. I hope Hobby Lobby loses. You can't reap the benefits of employees and customers of any kind, but then decide to limit what laws you will follow yourself. If I'm understanding the case correctly, then Hobby Lobby needs to only employ those who have their same belief system: which is illegal. When you rely on the public for revenue in that capacity, you're subject to the public laws. Being closed on Sundays is one thing, but you still cannot tell individuals what to do concerning their health. This is not about individuals, but about government health benefits and hate for Obama... which will always make me believe that racism is hiding in the throws behind it.

 

[momi]

Health decisions? What health decisions is HL preventing people from making?

 

[Browndilocks]

^^^ They do not want to provide insurance that allows for contraception or drugs that could cause abortion. I'm guessing that includes the abortion pill; but there are also a number of drugs that could cause spontaneous abortion (or miscarriage). Many of these drugs are often used in situations that have nothing to do with the run of the mill pro life/pro choice argument. People take BC pills and drugs that may cause miscarriage for a number of reasons... not just pregnancy. I don't believe HL should have the right to make those determinations based on their model of religion alone.

 

[momi]

^^^ They do not want to provide insurance that allows for contraception or drugs that could cause abortion. I'm guessing that includes the abortion pill; but there are also a number of drugs that could cause spontaneous abortion (or miscarriage). Many of these drugs are often used in situations that have nothing to do with the run of the mill pro life/pro choice argument. People take BC pills and drugs that may cause miscarriage for a number of reasons... not just pregnancy. I don't believe HL should have the right to make those determinations based on their model of religion alone.

Out of 20 birth control drugs Hobby Lobby only asked for an exemption for 4 - yet they were denied. Mind you these are drugs that the FDA themselves have labeled as abortion inducing.

No one is stopping the employees from purchasing their own abortion drugs. The decision to end the life of a child would be the woman's alone. I can definitely understand why HL would not want that blood on their hands.

 

[1QTPie]

Why do any of you think that your religious freedoms would be taken away from you? THis country is extremely tolerant of religion and in fact, celebrates it. Don't let those pundits on WGN and FOX news confuse you.

 

[Browndilocks]

Out of 20 birth control drugs Hobby Lobby only asked for an exemption for 4 - yet they were denied. Mind you these are drugs that the FDA themselves have labeled as abortion inducing.

No one is stopping the employees from purchasing their own abortion drugs. The decision to end the life of a child would be the woman's alone. I can definitely understand why HL would not want that blood on their hands.

There should be no exemptions period. Obamacare allows for certain drugs to be covered and that's that. HL is allowed 4 exemptions for their reasons, another company is allowed 5 exemptions for their reasons, another company is allowed 6 exemptions for their reasons, and in the grand scheme it's the workers who suffer. That's not right.

I wish these rich republican companies would stop trying to resist healthcare for all people by opening the door for loopholes in the mandate. If they truly believe God then they should know that He'll handle it. His will is being done regardless of HL winning or losing. I had to go for a period of years without health insurance even though I've had a job since I was 12. Part of my treatment includes having to take strong BC pills to avoid bleeding so much that I'd need a blood transfusion every few months. Yet after a law PASSES, a company is going to take it upon themselves to tell me what I can and cant take for my own treatment? Kick rocks. Don't bring your issues to me, take them to God.

 

[felic1]

I think allowing employees to use their insurance in ways that you do not believe in is extreme. I do not approve of practicing homosexuality. I worked with a man who was always talking about his boy friend, their lovely home, redecorated bedroom and the whole 9 yards. I found his conversation repulsive. The company had hired him. Was he eligible for a job? Yes. Did he have the credentials for a job? Yes. Was he a Christian? no. I think if a lady chooses to use contraceptives, she should. We go a bit far forcing our religious ideas on others.

 

[momi]

There should be no exemptions period. Obamacare allows for certain drugs to be covered and that's that. HL is allowed 4 exemptions for their reasons, another company is allowed 5 exemptions for their reasons, another company is allowed 6 exemptions for their reasons, and in the grand scheme it's the workers who suffer. That's not right.

I wish these rich republican companies would stop trying to resist healthcare for all people by opening the door for loopholes in the mandate. If they truly believe God then they should know that He'll handle it. His will is being done regardless of HL winning or losing. I had to go for a period of years without health insurance even though I've had a job since I was 12. Part of my treatment includes having to take strong BC pills to avoid bleeding so much that I'd need a blood transfusion every few months. Yet after a law PASSES, a company is going to take it upon themselves to tell me what I can and cant take for my own treatment? Kick rocks. Don't bring your issues to me, take them to God.

HL has always provided healthcare for it's employees that includes BC for their employees - you mean out of 16 a woman can't find one that isn't an abortifacient drug? This isn't about birth control pills - it is about abortion inducing drugs.

I've been discussing this off and on for the last few days and I understand more than ever - this is a spiritual battle. The Bible speaks about The Lord sending a strong delusion in the last days and I can definitely see that taking place. It's abortion without any restrictions or bust.

I will continue to pray for and support Hobby Lobby and any other business with the courage to stand for life.

 

[momi]

I think allowing employees to use their insurance in ways that you do not believe in is extreme. I do not approve of practicing homosexuality. I worked with a man who was always talking about his boy friend, their lovely home, redecorated bedroom and the whole 9 yards. I found his conversation repulsive. The company had hired him. Was he eligible for a job? Yes. Did he have the credentials for a job? Yes. Was he a Christian? no. I think if a lady chooses to use contraceptives, she should. We go a bit far forcing our religious ideas on others.

Have you read HL's case? They already offer contraceptives to their employees with insurance coverage.

 

[Browndilocks]

Yes, there is a strong delusion. The same people who are on TV documenting their missionary trips around the world to provide for the needy are fighting daily for people's inability to obtain health insurance in their own country. This is not about promoting abortion and standing for life. This is about corporations trying to get over and using Christianity as a beard.

 

[momi]

After years of discussing this I'd come to the conclusion that there was no convincing a pro-abortion woman that she doesn't have the choice to kill her own child. Ok I didn't agree clearly but realized there was no point in debating it.

Now I am going to have to reconcile the fact that she now wants someone else to pay for it as well?

It's almost too much to comprehend.

May The Lord judge between me and thee. 1 Samuel 24:12

 

[Browndilocks]

I agree. There is no point in debating it. Abortion is not for me but I'm not going to protest in the sleet until I'm blue in the fingers if someone else is determined to have one. I'm not going to barricade myself in a homosexual's office to prevent the activity that may happen under his desk with or without my permission. The thing about God is that he gives us all a choice and it is not my duty to force anything on anyone.

1Peter 3:15 says 15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:

Fighting to hold up everyone to force just a few people into doing what you want them to do is not the way.

 

[JaneBond007]

If you work for the local archdiocese of Pittsburgh and accidentally send through a claim for birth control, you can be fired because you signed on when hired to abide by catholic standards (bc are not covered) even if you're not catholic. How much of that is a "public" institution? Would a synagogue want to hire fellow Jews as administrators? You cannot be forced into a religion, but again, you don't have to work for a company/institution abiding by set religious practices for all its employees when you applied for the job.

 

[JaneBond007]

Why do any of you think that your religious freedoms would be taken away from you? THis country is extremely tolerant of religion and in fact, celebrates it. Don't let those pundits on WGN and FOX news confuse you.

Who is WGN and FOX confused? LOL. There is an onslaught against catholic rights to continue to not pay for bc. If we did pay for it, we would no longer be catholic. Those are religious freedoms in danger of being taken away. We just want the exemption as a religious institution. I can see the point of HL as well...and Chick-Fil-A if they disagreed as they are a company started by christians and based upon christian values. My issue is with people knowingly taking on such a job and then b******* later in when they aren't getting free bc's.

 

[Belle Du Jour]

There should be no exemptions period. Obamacare allows for certain drugs to be covered and that's that. HL is allowed 4 exemptions for their reasons, another company is allowed 5 exemptions for their reasons, another company is allowed 6 exemptions for their reasons, and in the grand scheme it's the workers who suffer. That's not right.

I wish these rich republican companies would stop trying to resist healthcare for all people by opening the door for loopholes in the mandate. If they truly believe God then they should know that He'll handle it. His will is being done regardless of HL winning or losing. I had to go for a period of years without health insurance even though I've had a job since I was 12. Part of my treatment includes having to take strong BC pills to avoid bleeding so much that I'd need a blood transfusion every few months. Yet after a law PASSES, a company is going to take it upon themselves to tell me what I can and cant take for my own treatment? Kick rocks. Don't bring your issues to me, take them to God.

Maybe then the issues is with Obamacare??? I think everyone should have access to healthcare in this country. However, I'm not going to finance your abortion or OCPs. No one should have to because "it's the law." If that's the law, then it's a bad law.

And obviously in your case, OCPs were being used to treat a medical condition, not to provide contraception. So that doesn't count in this case.

 

[Belle Du Jour]

Yes, there is a strong delusion. The same people who are on TV documenting their missionary trips around the world to provide for the needy are fighting daily for people's inability to obtain health insurance in their own country. This is not about promoting abortion and standing for life. This is about corporations trying to get over and using Christianity as a beard.

Actually, HL is far from the typical "greedy corporation." They are very fair with their employees. This is clearly a family business of Christians who do not want to be forced to conform to the world, nor should they. This isn't about them trying to "get over." For the nuns and other Catholic organizations who are strictly in the business of providing services to the poor, not making a billion in profit, it is absolutely about religious consciousness.

 

[Browndilocks]

"We're not paying for your gastric bypass or diabetes meds because you overate. God hates gluttons."

"We're not paying for your HIV meds. God hates fornication and homosexuality".


"We're not paying for allergy meds. You shouldn't eat shrimp anyway".

All I'm saying is, this opens the door to all kinds of loopholes for a myriad of corporations. What they stand for is not in question. If it's a christian org, then it needs to be an all the way christian org like the other religious churches so they can enforce their practices. Otherwise follow the rules.

 

[Belle Du Jour]

^^^ No it doesn't. You are being melodramatic. The Church has had a long history of being anti-contraception and anti-abortion. Please stop acting like Christians have pulled this out of left-field sinc ACA became law.

 

[Browndilocks]

^^^^^ Yes it does, and just because I disagree does not mean I'm being melodramatic. There are many things that have happened in recent times that were thought of as absurd in years before, such as gay marriage and the legalization of recreational drugs, that have in fact come to fruition. So would you please stop acting like I'm not focusing my attention on a corporation's ability to potentially dictate what will and wont be covered for people after it has been made a law, rather than arguing what Christians stand for? Thanks.

 

[Ivonnovi]

God gave us Free-will, lord knows he does not like many of out decisions....; YET centuries later man-kind still has and still excercises free-will.

BTW I don't like the existance of the meds they are protesting, I don't like war either; but I went to war 2x to protect the laws of the land, HL and it's owners can take several seats.

IMHO, HL should allow for the [exercise of] free-will of their employees.

They are in busines$ and their exi$tance is governed by the LAWs of the LAND; they do not know what their employee's spend their HL $$ on. If HL is paying for other types of contraceptions/fertility meds/fertility proceedures then IMHO they should provide coverage based upon the LAWs of said LAND.

Do they pick and choose which tax-laws they pay? Can they arbitrarily decide to violate child-labor laws so as to not spoil the child? Silly question I know but IMHO those questions are just as relevant.

 

[momi]

Christians are commanded to be subject to those who have rule over us. However if the law contradicts the law of God we are to obey God rather than man.

I am sure Hobby Lobby has discussed what their next step will be should the SCOTUS rule against them. I commend them for their commitment to operate according to God's commands and will continue to intercede on their behalf.

 

[Galadriel]

This case is radical irrationality. I hope Hobby Lobby loses.

@Browndilocks Obama and HHS are the irrational ones--and they're violating people's religious freedom.

You can't reap the benefits of employees and customers of any kind, but then decide to limit what laws you will follow yourself.

A business owner can decide pay and benefit packages he/she wishes to utilize for his company. That's part of the beauty of creating and owning your own business. Hobby Lobby isn't limiting anything, its owners are simply asking NOT to be forced to buy contraceptives, especially abortifacient ones. A Hobby Lobby employee who wants birth control pills can hop in their car and drive down to Target or Walmart and get what they want.

If I'm understanding the case correctly, then Hobby Lobby needs to only employ those who have their same belief system:

Actually, no. Hobby Lobby isn't suing in order to make employees believe as they do. They are challenging the contraceptive mandate because it violates their religious freedom to be forced by law to purchase or provide products that are abortifacient. If a person doesn't like Hobby Lobby's values, or doesn't like Hobby Lobby's benefits package--he's free to work or shop elsewhere. The Little Sisters of the Poor are also suing over the contraception mandate. The Little Sisters are a group of nuns who own nursing homes for the elderly and welcome anyone from any background and will take care of them. Obamacare's contraception mandate is also trying to tell this group of Catholic nuns that they ought to sign off on contraception.

When you rely on the public for revenue in that capacity, you're subject to the public laws. Being closed on Sundays is one thing, but you still cannot tell individuals what to do concerning their health.

Hobby Lobby hasn't told anyone what to do concerning their health--in fact, they want to be LEFT OUT of it and not be forced by the government to buy contraceptives.

This is not about individuals, but about government health benefits and hate for Obama... which will always make me believe that racism is hiding in the throws behind it.

And you said the owners of Hobby Lobby were irrational? I am opposed to many of Obama's policies and Obamacare, and the HHS mandate, based on common sense, my morals and values, and sound economic theory.

Oh...and please...Buy. Your own. Contraceptives.

 

[Galadriel]

Christians are commanded to be subject to those who have rule over us. However if the law contradicts the law of God we are to obey God rather than man.

I am sure Hobby Lobby has discussed what their next step will be should the SCOTUS rule against them. I commend them for their commitment to operate according to God's commands and will continue to intercede on their behalf.

Please also remember the following organizations in your prayers who are also challenging the contraception mandate:

Priests For Life
Little Sisters of the Poor
Eternal Word Television Network

 

[Galadriel]

God gave us Free-will, lord knows he does not like many of out decisions....; YET centuries later man-kind still has and still excercises free-will.

BTW I don't like the existance of the meds they are protesting, I don't like war either; but I went to war 2x to protect the laws of the land, HL and it's owners can take several seats.

IMHO, HL should allow for the [exercise of] free-will of their employees.

They are in busines$ and their exi$tance is governed by the LAWs of the LAND; they do not know what their employee's spend their HL $$ on. If HL is paying for other types of contraceptions/fertility meds/fertility proceedures then IMHO they should provide coverage based upon the LAWs of said LAND.

Do they pick and choose which tax-laws they pay? Can they arbitrarily decide to violate child-labor laws so as to not spoil the child? Silly question I know but IMHO those questions are just as relevant.

Unjust laws are often enacted, and we have the right to protest unjust laws. Hobby Lobby is taking it to court, and I fully support them and will be praying for their victory.