Do you believe this?

[lnhair]

I was reading on naturallycurly.com about the Andre Walker system that type 4's hair is not as strong as the othr hair types. It says that type 4's have less cuticle layers. I have roommates with type type one or 2 hair. My strands are just as thick as theirs. i even tried to test this I know this sounds crazy. I gathered a strand of my and a strand of their hair and mine is definitely thicker and feels quite stronger. How do you ladies feel about this?

 

[MizaniMami]

I was reading on naturallycurly.com about the Andre Walker system that type 4's hair is not as strong as the othr hair types. It says that type 4's have less cuticle layers. I have roommates with type type one or 2 hair. My strands are just as thick as theirs. i even tried to test this I know this sounds crazy. I gathered a strand of my and a strand of their hair and mine is definitely thicker and feels quite stronger. How do you ladies feel about this?

You know I am glad you asked this. I always have felt that the kinkier/coarser/nappier the hair type the stronger. Always no matter what anyone says.

But I feel that what will work against us is the lack of moisture that it may have.

 

[JustKiya]

Hair is made up of several layers - and I think it's the cortex that determines how thick your hair is - so the fact that your hair is thicker than their does not automatically mean that you have just as many cuticle layers as they do.

As far as I understand, because type 4 hair is tightly curled, the cuticles cannot lay flat, therefore they are subject to being 'flaked' off easeir, because they have an exposed edge. As far as us growing hair with less cuticles on them though - that I've never heard, and would think that it would vary from person to person, regardless of race.

 

[Cichelle]

Well, you can have type 4 hair and it can be coarse, medium or fine. So it's not just about comparing types against each other.

My daughter as 1A coarse hair. I have mostly 3b medium hair. I once compared our strands under a magnifying glass just for kicks. Her hair strand was really strong and thick looking...like I could write with it if I dipped it in some ink!

Every type of hair can be in a range of thicknesses and strengths. I suppose Andre was speaking in general. But who really knows what he was thinking.

 

[Qetesh]

I am not really sure if my opinion is right, but I do think the thick course hair is stronger in some ways, if I compare a stand of my hair to a blond white girl it is noticeably thicker, but then my fiancée's hair is a 4c and its also noticeably ticker then my hair. The problem is with hair as thick as his he doesn’t have as many hair strands as say me and I am sure I have way less than a natural blond/ white girl.

So in the strength of the hair I think it is stronger, but it's also weaker because they have fewer strands and it is so curly it's susceptible to damage easier and each strand means more to the over all hair health. Another thing that I want to point out is that in genetics the weaker traits are always trumped by the stronger traits and curly hair is a dominate trait where as straight is a weaker trait (IE blue eyes are a recessive trait and brown eyes are dominate, and further review on this subject you will find blue eyes are in some ways a deformity because blue eyed people can not see vibrant color as a brown eyed person can) so this begs to differ from his opinion.

I also need to make a thread on how people feel about hair only being able to grow to a certain length on black hair, I am often told this "your hair cant grow that long your not white, type thing"... how true is this?

 

[Sharpened]

Well, you can have type 4 hair and it can be coarse, medium or fine. So it's not just about comparing types against each other.

Every type of hair can be in a range of thicknesses and strengths. I suppose Andre was speaking in general. But who really knows what he was thinking.

Exactly! As I have said before and will repeat often, Andre's system is sore lacking. Maybe I should email him Fia's system. My hair strands are thicker than my white husband's very fine strands, but not quite as thick as medium.

I am often told this "your hair cant grow that long your not white, type thing"... how true is this?

Not true at all...it depends on so many factors, but the myths surrounding this are being dispelled as we speak. I visit a white long hair care forum, and the amount of hair complaints are about the same. Some even who say their hair will never be as long as most in the forum.

 

[lnhair]

Well if thickness of strands has nothing to do with the cuticle? why do people with thick strands can possible handle more damage than those with fine hair. The andre walker system says we have less cuticle layer and our hair is fine, that fall in type 4's. So thickness of strand must have something to do with cuticle rather than cortex. I noticed that my hair can take more abuse than those of finer hair textures than those with fine strands. Because he says only our cuticle layers differ.

 

[Qetesh]

Well if thickness of strands has nothing to do with the cuticle? why do people with thick strands can possible handle more damage than those with fine hair. The andre walker system says we have less cuticle layer and our hair is fine, that fall in type 4's. So thickness of strand must have something to do with cuticle rather than cortex. I noticed that my hair can take more abuse than those of finer hair textures than those with fine strands. Because he says only our cuticle layers differ.

i agree with you the amount of heat it takes to straighten my hair would BURN off white girls hair because thier hair is so fine (in general terms)

so i think his theroy is off

 

[spoogeywoogey]

Hi ladies,
There seems to be a bit of confusion with the actual structure of hair. The hair is basically comprised of 3 layers: 1. the outer cuticle which looks like overlapping scales or shingles under a microscope, 2.the inner cortex that houses all the keratin fibres, and 3. the innermost medulla which is just an optional space. The overall structure is similar to a cable. If you were to cut a telephone cable and strip the outer sheath you will see the inner fibres. The outer sheath would be the cuticle, and the fibres within, would be the cortex.
The thickness of a hair strand is dependent on the number of fibres present in the cortical unit and whether or not a medulla is present. The cuticle does not determine the thickness of the hair. The strength of the hair will therefore be related to the thickness/ cross section of the hair. Fine, medium or coarse hair (think of the bristles of a hair brush) can be present in any person of any racial background. For the most part, the majority of people on the planet have medium hair strands. That is why the thickness of your hair strand didn't look much different from your roommate's.
The reason kinky hair (roughly 3c-4b on the Andre Walker system) is weak is because the cross section/diameter of the hair isn't uniform throughout, it is shaped like an ellipse. This makes the whole strand of hair twist around like a spiral (best seen under a scanning electron microscope.) People with straight hair (Classed 1 under AW) have hair that is like a cylinder and so the diameter is a uniform circle throughout. People with wavy to curly hair (2s-3s) have a more oval cross section which tends to have a more uniform cross-section throughout the strand. Therefore the degree of twisting is much less with their hair.
So what does that mean? The diameter of kinky hair keeps changing throughout the strand and since strength of the fibre is dependent on the width of the fibre, then it is easier for the hair to break at the areas where the hair is thinner in diameter. Also, the cuticle doesn't cover the cortex nicely because of all this twisting and bending. The shingles are more raised, and so can be easily flaked off as nappywymn mentioned. Therefore the cortex is more easily exposed.
Now, as we all know, how one treats her hair will affect the thickness of the strand. Everyday combing plus abuse from flatironing, whole head relaxers etc., will remove the outer layers of the hair. And maybe that's why your roommates' hair was thinner than yours. They probably don't take care of their hair as much as you do.
I really hope this didn't seem overly technical, because I'm quoting journal information that goes into some serious detail about hair. I am a newbie who is currently writing a book on natural hair, but it is taking me forever because I'm finishing up med school. I hope this was helpful.

 

[blueabyss333]

I was reading on naturallycurly.com about the Andre Walker system that type 4's hair is not as strong as the othr hair types. It says that type 4's have less cuticle layers. I have roommates with type type one or 2 hair. My strands are just as thick as theirs. i even tried to test this I know this sounds crazy. I gathered a strand of my and a strand of their hair and mine is definitely thicker and feels quite stronger. How do you ladies feel about this?

Our hair isn't as strong but we're just as beautiful We do have less layers of cuticles because our hair is much more kinkier and curlier. This also a result of 4's having drier hair because it is harder for the moisture to spread throughout the strand since it's so curly.

 

[RainbowCurls]

Very informative post, spoogeywoogey.

 

[infojunkie]

Wow, I learn something new from you guys everyday. So I guess that's the reason why one of the other sisters on this forum moisturizes twice a day. Maybe I'll try that too - couldn't hurt with my dry hair.

 

[HoneyDew]

Well, my man's wavy type 2 hair always seems to be able to deal with more wear and tear than mine.

It may not be stronger, I don't know, but I think that type 4s hair can snap more easily if it does not have the proper moisture along the strand.

 

[MizaniMami]

Hi ladies,
There seems to be a bit of confusion with the actual structure of hair. The hair is basically comprised of 3 layers: 1. the outer cuticle which looks like overlapping scales or shingles under a microscope, 2.the inner cortex that houses all the keratin fibres, and 3. the innermost medulla which is just an optional space. The overall structure is similar to a cable. If you were to cut a telephone cable and strip the outer sheath you will see the inner fibres. The outer sheath would be the cuticle, and the fibres within, would be the cortex.
The thickness of a hair strand is dependent on the number of fibres present in the cortical unit and whether or not a medulla is present. The cuticle does not determine the thickness of the hair. The strength of the hair will therefore be related to the thickness/ cross section of the hair. Fine, medium or coarse hair (think of the bristles of a hair brush) can be present in any person of any racial background. For the most part, the majority of people on the planet have medium hair strands. That is why the thickness of your hair strand didn't look much different from your roommate's.
The reason kinky hair (roughly 3c-4b on the Andre Walker system) is weak is because the cross section/diameter of the hair isn't uniform throughout, it is shaped like an ellipse. This makes the whole strand of hair twist around like a spiral (best seen under a scanning electron microscope.) People with straight hair (Classed 1 under AW) have hair that is like a cylinder and so the diameter is a uniform circle throughout. People with wavy to curly hair (2s-3s) have a more oval cross section which tends to have a more uniform cross-section throughout the strand. Therefore the degree of twisting is much less with their hair.
So what does that mean? The diameter of kinky hair keeps changing throughout the strand and since strength of the fibre is dependent on the width of the fibre, then it is easier for the hair to break at the areas where the hair is thinner in diameter. Also, the cuticle doesn't cover the cortex nicely because of all this twisting and bending. The shingles are more raised, and so can be easily flaked off as nappywymn mentioned. Therefore the cortex is more easily exposed.
Now, as we all know, how one treats her hair will affect the thickness of the strand. Everyday combing plus abuse from flatironing, whole head relaxers etc., will remove the outer layers of the hair. And maybe that's why your roommates' hair was thinner than yours. They probably don't take care of their hair as much as you do.
I really hope this didn't seem overly technical, because I'm quoting journal information that goes into some serious detail about hair. I am a newbie who is currently writing a book on natural hair, but it is taking me forever because I'm finishing up med school. I hope this was helpful.

i swear I am not trying to be a prude, but according to this that would mean relaxed hair is stronger than naturals, right?

Sorry, I disagree.

 

[Cheleigh]

i swear I am not trying to be a prude, but according to this that would mean relaxed hair is stronger than naturals, right?

Sorry, I disagree.

I don't "think" it means that, because we know that relaxed hair is artifically straight, meaning that it's still your original hair type with broken keratin bonds. When I read what Spoogey wrote, I assume that relaxed hair would be weaker, since you bascially you still have type x (whatever your hair type before you relaxed it) hair, but with additional damage.

For example, I think that the japanese thermal straightening system that asians and some whites use to permanently straighten their hair is stronger than our lye or no-lye based relaxer systems. I think it's harder to break the keratin bonds in their hair (generally speaking) than in our hair (generally speaking).

 

[MizaniMami]

I don't "think" it means that, because we know that relaxed hair is artifically straight, meaning that it's still your original hair type with broken keratin bonds. When I read what Spoogey wrote, I assume that relaxed hair would be weaker, since you bascially you still have type x (whatever your hair type before you relaxed it) hair, but with additional damage.

For example, I think that the japanese thermal straightening system that asians and some whites use to permanently straighten their hair is stronger than our lye or no-lye based relaxer systems. I think it's harder to break the keratin bonds in their hair (generally speaking) than in our hair (generally speaking).

Oh thanks for breaking that down for me.

 

[HoneyDew]

i swear I am not trying to be a prude, but according to this that would mean relaxed hair is stronger than naturals, right?

Sorry, I disagree.

I don't agree (or I maybe I am misunderstanding). Relaxing removes the cuticle layer all together right? So, that is totally different.

 

[spoogeywoogey]

Thanks PerfectDoak, took me some major searching to find articles on African hair. I find it sad that not much information is available for people who put so much money and effort into their hair and skin. And so, because of this, products are being made that don't necessarily address our exact needs. But that's a whole other story.

To answer MizaniMami, no, relaxed hair would not be stronger than natural hair. The bonds are broken down and allowed to reform in a different orientation. But the reformation process is not 100% perfect. If 100 bonds were present holding the hair in a spiral formation, when the hair is straightened, only about 70% of those bonds are reformed. That is why it's not wise to do repeated whole head relaxers. Also, I was describing hair in it's natural state i.e. naturally straight, wavy, curly, and kinky hair. I hope I cleared up any misconception.

 

[Poohbear]

It all depends on that individuals' hair strand thickness.

One can have fine type 4 hair strands.
One can have thick type 4 hair strands.
One can have fine type 1 or 2 hair strands.
One can have thick type 1 or 2 hair strands.

Don't get too caught up into Andre's hair typing system... it doesn't really break it down. Our hair can have so many hair textures and so many hair densities that they can not fit into one category like Andre tries to do.

 

[Poohbear]

You know I am glad you asked this. I always have felt that the kinkier/coarser/nappier the hair type the stronger. Always no matter what anyone says.

But I feel that what will work against us is the lack of moisture that it may have.

Here's another breakdown...

One can have strong kinky/coarse/nappy hair.
One can have fragile kinky/coarse/nappy hair.
One can have strong curly/fine/silky hair.
One can have fragile curly/fine/silky hair.

It's common sense! Just take a look at all the different ladies here at LHCF and other hair sites who have a wide range of different hair textures, patterns, and densities!!!

One hair type is not subject to only strong or only fragile. That's the problem with Andre's hair typing system.

 

[Poohbear]

i agree with you the amount of heat it takes to straighten my hair would BURN off white girls hair because thier hair is so fine (in general terms)

so i think his theroy is off

Not all white girls have fine hair strands! ...and vice versa!
Not all black girls have thick hair strands! ...and vice versa!

Hair texture, patterns, and densities are not limited to races either. There are kinky-haired white girls... there are wavy/curly-haired black girls.

 

[lsubabiedee]

i don't know if i believe it or not but imo Andre's system is flawed. It doesn't take into account the different textures and thickness of hair, only the curl pattern.

 

[FAMUDva]

From: http://dermatology.about.com/cs/hairanatomy/a/hairbiology.htm

Shaft - The hair shaft is made up of dead, hard protein called keratin in three layers. The inner layer is called the medulla and may not be present. The next layer is the cortex and the outer layer is the cuticle. The cortex makes up the majority of the hair shaft. The cuticle is formed by tightly packed scales in an overlapping structure similar to roof shingles. Most hair conditioning products attempt to affect the cuticle. There are pigment cells that are distributed throughout the cortex and medulla giving the hair it's characteristic color.

 

[FAMUDva]

i swear I am not trying to be a prude, but according to this that would mean relaxed hair is stronger than naturals, right?

Sorry, I disagree.

I don't think that would be refering to relaxed hair since TECHINCALLY you can only relax the dead portion of the hair (the exposed hair), which does not change the anatomy of the actual hair as it grew out of your head. The relaxer does however change the curl pattern by chemically relaxing the curl that is being mentioned and in turn the chemicals can affect the outer layer probably causing loss of more cuticle layers. In my understanding of biology that doesn't have to do with your natural medulla, cortex or cuticle as it would grow out of your hair shaft. It also has nothing to do with the shape of your actual hair strand as mentioned. I've taken an up close look at my relaxed tresses and you can see with the naked eye that in some places it's flatter than in other places, thus the elliptical shape she mentioned.

 

[FAMUDva]

Hi ladies,
There seems to be a bit of confusion with the actual structure of hair. The hair is basically comprised of 3 layers: 1. the outer cuticle which looks like overlapping scales or shingles under a microscope, 2.the inner cortex that houses all the keratin fibres, and 3. the innermost medulla which is just an optional space. The overall structure is similar to a cable. If you were to cut a telephone cable and strip the outer sheath you will see the inner fibres. The outer sheath would be the cuticle, and the fibres within, would be the cortex.
The thickness of a hair strand is dependent on the number of fibres present in the cortical unit and whether or not a medulla is present. The cuticle does not determine the thickness of the hair. The strength of the hair will therefore be related to the thickness/ cross section of the hair. Fine, medium or coarse hair (think of the bristles of a hair brush) can be present in any person of any racial background. For the most part, the majority of people on the planet have medium hair strands. That is why the thickness of your hair strand didn't look much different from your roommate's.
The reason kinky hair (roughly 3c-4b on the Andre Walker system) is weak is because the cross section/diameter of the hair isn't uniform throughout, it is shaped like an ellipse. This makes the whole strand of hair twist around like a spiral (best seen under a scanning electron microscope.) People with straight hair (Classed 1 under AW) have hair that is like a cylinder and so the diameter is a uniform circle throughout. People with wavy to curly hair (2s-3s) have a more oval cross section which tends to have a more uniform cross-section throughout the strand. Therefore the degree of twisting is much less with their hair.
So what does that mean? The diameter of kinky hair keeps changing throughout the strand and since strength of the fibre is dependent on the width of the fibre, then it is easier for the hair to break at the areas where the hair is thinner in diameter. Also, the cuticle doesn't cover the cortex nicely because of all this twisting and bending. The shingles are more raised, and so can be easily flaked off as nappywymn mentioned. Therefore the cortex is more easily exposed.
Now, as we all know, how one treats her hair will affect the thickness of the strand. Everyday combing plus abuse from flatironing, whole head relaxers etc., will remove the outer layers of the hair. And maybe that's why your roommates' hair was thinner than yours. They probably don't take care of their hair as much as you do.
I really hope this didn't seem overly technical, because I'm quoting journal information that goes into some serious detail about hair. I am a newbie who is currently writing a book on natural hair, but it is taking me forever because I'm finishing up med school. I hope this was helpful.

The scientist in me is definitely on board with what you've paraphrased above. It's on point with what we covered in developmental anatomy years ago.

 

[lnhair]

Has anybody through googling and research has really found a reliable source that states that type 4s have less cuticle layers than other types. I have not, especially not from googling. The only source that i found that states this the Andre Walker System.

 

[FAMUDva]

Has anybody through googling and research has really found a reliable source that states that type 4s have less cuticle layers than other types. I have not, especially not from googling. The only source that i found that states this the Andre Walker System.

In scientific journals they don't "type" hair based on 1-4 so I wouldn't be able to fine reliable scientific source based solely on his numbering system. Part of the reason I don't trust his typing system.

 

[leleepop]

IMAO I dont like to get too technical about this hair thing because it only confused me in the past....I do what my hair likes and thats it....I still cant really tell that my hair is thick,thin,4a,3c,4z so I cant make an educated guess at far as what my hair will do as oposed to another.....one thing I do know is that my hair is thriving from my regimen and advice I received from LHCF and hair albums I've viewed.

 

[FAMUDva]

Abstracts from Scientific Journals:

Morphology and properties of Asian and Caucasian hair
Hair-Care Research Laboratories, Kao Corporation, 1-3, Bunka 2, Sumida-ku, Tokyo, 131-8501
1: J Cosmet Sci. 2006 Jul-Aug;57(4):327-38. Takahashi T, Hayashi R, Okamoto M, Inoue S.

Various aspects of Asian and Caucasian hairs were investigated and compared. We started by studying their cuticle structures-the number of cuticle layers, width of the cuticle cells, degree of their inclination, and the interval between surface cuticle edges. As a result of this study, on about two hundred subjects for each race, it was shown that there were statistically meaningful differences between all these attributes for the two hair types. Asian hair has more cuticle layers and wider cuticle cells than Caucasian hair, and the cuticular inclination of Asian hair is steeper and its cuticular interval is narrower than in Caucasian hair. In addition, it was also found that there are differences in how cuticle cells begin to fail. Under extension stress, Asian hair cuticles fail as large pieces while keeping their original shape. On the other hand, Caucasian hair cuticles tend to collapse to form small fragments. AFM measurements revealed that Caucasian cuticles are indeed more fragile than Asian cuticles. These results suggest that the strength of cuticular subcomponents is different between Asian and Caucasian hair and that the weakest point, where stress is first absorbed, differs between races. It was proven that the cuticles of Asian hair are more easily peeled off than Caucasian hair cuticles during daily grooming. This can be attributed to the difference in how stress is absorbed.
PMID: 16957811 [PubMed - in process]

Current research on ethnic hair.
1: J Am Acad Dermatol. 2003 Jun;48(6 Suppl):S115-9. Franbourg A, Hallegot P, Baltenneck F, Toutain C, Leroy F.
L'Oreal Recherche, Clichy, France. [email protected]

This study collected qualitative and quantitative data about the morphology, structure, geometry, water swelling, and mechanical properties of hair fibers from subjects of different ethnic origins. X-ray analysis, cross-sectional measurements, tensile testing, and water swelling were performed on samples of hair collected from Caucasian, Asian, and African subjects. No differences in the intimate structures of fibers were observed among these 3 types of hairs, whereas geometry, mechanical properties, and water swelling differed according to ethnic origin. In addition, the behavior of hair fiber under mechanical stress was visualized with environmental scanning electron microscopy.
PMID: 12789163 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


There are 1000s more articles in PubMed. In science you always trust the most recent findings. Please note that above one was completed in 2006 and the other was from 2003. Anyone interested in search for scientific journals and articles on ANYTHING can go to www.pubmed.gov.

Happy growing!