CHRISTIANITY AND SAVAGES

[Laela]

There are two slightly different conversations going on here... one concerning people's opinions concerning "bad Christians" another concerning missionary work and its effect on cultures worldwide. The latter being what we all tend to know historically about indigenous peoples the world over being abused by so-called missionaries.

What Nymphe has been emphasizing is that missionaries (like anyone who professes Christ) are called to "go into all the world and preach the Gospel" This is a dictate from God. We are supposed to face rejection, persecution, even violence. How God's work is presented in missionary work is what makes it effective or non- ineffective.

If a culture isn't worshiping the one true God, it's worshiping other gods. It's really that simple. I'm sorry but there are way too many missionaries out there who ARE doing things right and not abusing or forcing themselves on people, than those who are.

You have a very interesting opinion... Something like, "You're not in a position to spread the word, you need to clean up your own house first."

I can get with that, too. I'm coming from the angle that these so-called 'savages' have adopted a way of life that already works for them, why do they need Christianity? To many, Christianity is a beautiful thing, but it starts off a chain reaction that results in the ending of an established and thriving culture.

 

[Laela]

That's an interesting point, about culture. I can't tell you how many interesting conversations I've had with others from overseas about "culture". I come from a culture of "savages"... this culture gyrates to lusty music, promotes sexual freedom, allows children to 'worship' other gods by letting them wear marks on their bodies... they call it CARNIVAL

It's true, we don't need to go to far away lands to preach the Word to 'savages'. Being separated from God will keep animal characteristics in all of us... When we get to know God, our eyes begin to open to seeing these things for what they are.

Cultures come and go, with or without human or natural intervention and it will never stop. History proves that over and over again, even before Jesus came along. Dig deeper into the past; you will be surprised at what you find.

This is about a relationship, not religion. Religion is no different than politics or any man-made construct. People can accept or reject His Gift of eternal life, but He alone makes the connection within a person's heart.

 

[Guitarhero]

What Nymphe has been emphasizing is that missionaries (like anyone who professes Christ) are called to "go into all the world and preach the Gospel" This is a dictate from God. We are supposed to face rejection, persecution, even violence. How God's work is presented in missionary work is what makes it effective or non- ineffective..

Yes, and not perpetrate it. Someone made mention of missionaries telling others the errors of their religions, even christian orthodoxy. I've had second-hand experience of this, witnessing how this works. How can one go to a country that has been christian for 2,000 years and tell its countrymen they are not the "right" kind of christians? erplexed

This issue is so multi-faceted. Anyway, who has a link to the original thread and/or article???

 

[LovingLady]

You have a very interesting opinion... Something like, "You're not in a position to spread the word, you need to clean up your own house first."

I can get with that, too. I'm coming from the angle that these so-called 'savages' have adopted a way of life that already works for them, why do they need Christianity? To many, Christianity is a beautiful thing, but it starts off a chain reaction that results in the ending of an established and thriving culture.

I'm not looking for perfect group...but when and if I do, I will let you know!
I guess you just made my point with that statement though, if Christianity isn't perfect, then how do you know whatever it is the wild people are doing isn't any better?

I'm not going to say any more about it though. My point was basically, indigenous people may or may not benefit from being inroduced to Christianity and basically while they are saying "...Be like Christ..." there are many Christians that aren't doing that. Basically, before you fix someone else's pipes, figure out a way to stop your own from leaking. That's all I was trying to say.

You can not blame Christianity, you can only blame the people in the religion.

Now, just because you are a Christian that does not mean you will no longer commit sin or fall into temptation. For us not to spread the gospel and tell people the truth because our society is not living it out perfectly doesn't make sense, the truth is the truth and people need to know it. Learning about God and how Jesus died for our sin is an amazing thing, in the end it does nothing but benefit people. If their culture is destroyed and there was nothing sinfully about it, then it is the fault of man, not of God.

 

[tarheelgurl]

We have people right here in civilization practicing savage behavior ie: pedophiles, murderers and drug addicts. Some of these island people need to say "why you comin here telling me this when you got Christians in your own country doing the same things or worse."

Get your own house right before you go telling other people what they should do. Many cultures have fallen after the introduction of Christianity and it makes sense....there are priests raping boys, preachers with downlow homosexual relationships and gay church piano players on almost every block.

Tarheelgurl? Do you think these behaviors are OK? If so why? If not , why not?

.

No, I do not think that pedophelia, rape and murders are ok in any way, shape or form. This is coming from a moral point of view and maintaining the structure of a functional society. I am a Christian but I do not use what I believe to infringe on someone else's opinion or lifestyle. There are so many people who call themselves Christians but will hate someone because they claim the Bible dictates them to do so.

Many people I know that go to church every Sunday are the biggest sinners on Saturday night, but will tell me I am wrong for not attending services. There is nothing wrong with going to a country, immersing in the culture and offering the Christian teachings to the local residents. Give them a choice, teach them about the Bible.

It is another thing completely, to come into a country and tell everyone they are savage, hell bound heathens because they practice whatever religion it is they have been practicing it for who knows how long. Just because its different doesn't mean its wrong. I am not justifying having sex with young boys, but I am saying that its what they do...it would be different if people went there and said "hey, we are taking these kids to protect them from being raped" but they aren't. They are saying 'hey, your ways are not right, let us make you Christians'. What about the boys?

Its like people are more concerned with converting people and saving their souls instead of protecting the children from what's happening to them.

 

[Laela]

When the Apostle Paul said he was all things to all People, he was accommodating a "culture" based on their way of life (language, dress, diet, social customs, entertainment, etc.) but he was not accommodating in terms of doctrine or moral behavior.
1 Corinthians 9:19-23



19For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
20And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
21To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
22To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
23And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.

Yes, and not perpetrate it. Someone made mention of missionaries telling others the errors of their religions, even christian orthodoxy. I've had second-hand experience of this, witnessing how this works. How can one go to a country that has been christian for 2,000 years and tell its countrymen they are not the "right" kind of christians? erplexed

This issue is so multi-faceted. Anyway, who has a link to the original thread and/or article???

 

[Guitarhero]

When the Apostle Paul said he was all things to all People, he was accommodating a "culture" based on their way of life (language, dress, diet, social customs, entertainment, etc.) but he was not accommodating in terms of doctrine or moral behavior.
1 Corinthians 9:19-23



19For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
20And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
21To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
22To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
23And this I do for the gospel's sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.

What do you mean, exactly? The ones I know held to the truth as given by the apostles and are regularly "attacked" and psychologically seduced to change that for a christianity that developed much later in history...say, the 21st century. I'm not understanding.

Incidentally, this practice is all over the Americas. I see it often and it's something I have been pondering this week...so surprised to see this thread. My concerns were related to those who ask "when did you become a christian" and the responses were either conversion through the RCC or orthodox church, and/or baptism as infants. There are people who just were raised to be christians and took over these reins at confirmation (age of accountability). They didn't have an altar call (as I understand it) experience with crying and sorrow...they just held firm to the truth all their lives. Dunno. So, they don't have a particular moment of turning around per se. A little off-topic...but not much.

 

[Laela]

The Christian teachings is based on the Bible...the infallible Word of God, in which Jesus himself said that the ONLY way to God the Father is through Him. Ergo, if a person doesn't accept Jesus, they don't have access to God. There is no gray

You're right, it is a choice....a person either believes what the Bible says or they don't. God will respect their choice and Christians should, too.

I hope you're not confusing some missionaries' passion and excitement in spreading the Gospel with forcing themselves on others. There's a difference. A Child of God isn't going to 'immerse' themselves in any culture to the point of compromise. It's not being an effective witness when our spiritual lives get 'infected' instead of our lives being effective.

Folks like to always say Jesus "hung out" with sinners. But they gloss over the fact that he didn't "hang out" with sinners to accommodate them morally or to please them, he was in their midst to restore them back to God. He had a mission and that mission included compassion and CHANGE. His mission wasn't forced but it was effective. That is the difference.

No, I do not think that pedophelia, rape and murders are ok in any way, shape or form. This is coming from a moral point of view and maintaining the structure of a functional society. I am a Christian but I do not use what I believe to infringe on someone else's opinion or lifestyle. There are so many people who call themselves Christians but will hate someone because they claim the Bible dictates them to do so.

Many people I know that go to church every Sunday are the biggest sinners on Saturday night, but will tell me I am wrong for not attending services. There is nothing wrong with going to a country, immersing in the culture and offering the Christian teachings to the local residents. Give them a choice, teach them about the Bible.

It is another thing completely, to come into a country and tell everyone they are savage, hell bound heathens because they practice whatever religion it is they have been practicing it for who knows how long. Just because its different doesn't mean its wrong.I am not justifying having sex with young boys, but I am saying that its what they do...it would be different if people went there and said "hey, we are taking these kids to protect them from being raped" but they aren't. They are saying 'hey, your ways are not right, let us make you Christians'. What about the boys?

Its like people are more concerned with converting people and saving their souls instead of protecting the children from what's happening to them.

 

[Laela]

I agree the Church has changed dramatically over the centuries and is far from what the Early Church was. Since God's Word hasn't and will never change, there will always be people who live for God.

That's my point.

What do you mean, exactly? The ones I know held to the truth as given by the apostles and are regularly "attacked" and psychologically seduced to change that for a christianity that developed much later in history...say, the 21st century. I'm not understanding.

Incidentally, this practice is all over the Americas. I see it often and it's something I have been pondering this week...so surprised to see this thread. My concerns were related to those who ask "when did you become a christian" and the responses were either conversion through the RCC or orthodox church, and/or baptism as infants. There are people who just were raised to be christians and took over these reins at confirmation (age of accountability). They didn't have an altar call (as I understand it) experience with crying and sorrow...they just held firm to the truth all their lives. Dunno. So, they don't have a particular moment of turning around per se. A little off-topic...but not much.

 

[Nice & Wavy]

[FONT=Arial,Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]There exists a certain degree of hypocrisy among us. What I mean is, without qualms, we condemn the world for not being Christian, yet without remorse we accept we are not Christlike. [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I am not saying we shouldn't cry out against evil; sin exists and we must reprove it. However, at some point we must recognize there is more to our destiny than judging sin AND judging those who do judge sin. God is looking for the perfection of mercy within us. "Mercy triumphs over judgment" (James 2:13), and to follow Christ is to walk the path of mercy toward full redemption.

[/FONT][/FONT] [FONT=Arial,Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Recall the words of Paul. He tells us to "Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus" (Phil. 2:5). He goes on to explain that Christ existed in the form of God, yet He emptied Himself, took the form of a man, and died for our sins. In other words, He saw the need, but instead of condemning man, He died for man. Paul says we are to have this same attitude in us. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
I do not want to be a typical American Christian. I am hungry for more. I want to "grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head [of the church], even Christ" (Eph. 4:15). Our call is to attain "the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ". [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Jesus said, "As the Father has sent Me, I also send you" (John 20:21). As Christ was sent into the world to pay the price for sin, so in following Him we become a society of redeemers. When wounded, we forgive; when forced to go one mile, we go two. We bless those who curse us and turn the other cheek to those who strike us. As Christ hung on the cross at Calvary and prayed, "Father, forgive them . . ." (Luke 23:34), so we stand before God and, on behalf of our sinful world, we pray the mercy prayer as well. [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I am convinced that the more Christlike the church becomes, the greater will be the backing of Heaven. The more we become a society of redeemers, the more hope we have to see our nation turned back to God. (Francis Frangipane)

No matter what it looks like to anyone, there are people who are serving the Lord with a true heart, and are leading people to Christ like never before. What we must do, is do what Our Father has told us to do and not listen to the counsel of those who don't know Jesus as Savior and Lord of all!

[/FONT][/FONT]“Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. “He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. “These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.” So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God. And they went out and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them, and confirmed the word by the signs that followed. Mark 16: 15 - 20 NASB

N&W

 

[tarheelgurl]

WOW! NiceandWavy you just put it down when you wrote this! I appreciate all of what you have just written and hope you continue to inspire me. Thank you!!

[FONT=Arial,Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]There exists a certain degree of hypocrisy among us. What I mean is, without qualms, we condemn the world for not being Christian, yet without remorse we accept we are not Christlike. [/FONT][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I am not saying we shouldn't cry out against evil; sin exists and we must reprove it. However, at some point we must recognize there is more to our destiny than judging sin AND judging those who do judge sin. God is looking for the perfection of mercy within us. "Mercy triumphs over judgment" (James 2:13), and to follow Christ is to walk the path of mercy toward full redemption. [/FONT]

[/FONT][FONT=Arial,Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Recall the words of Paul. He tells us to "Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus" (Phil. 2:5). He goes on to explain that Christ existed in the form of God, yet He emptied Himself, took the form of a man, and died for our sins. In other words, He saw the need, but instead of condemning man, He died for man. Paul says we are to have this same attitude in us. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica]
[FONT=Arial,Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica]I do not want to be a typical American Christian. I am hungry for more. I want to "grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head [of the church], even Christ" (Eph. 4:15). Our call is to attain "the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ". [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Jesus said, "As the Father has sent Me, I also send you" (John 20:21). As Christ was sent into the world to pay the price for sin, so in following Him we become a society of redeemers. When wounded, we forgive; when forced to go one mile, we go two. We bless those who curse us and turn the other cheek to those who strike us. As Christ hung on the cross at Calvary and prayed, "Father, forgive them . . ." (Luke 23:34), so we stand before God and, on behalf of our sinful world, we pray the mercy prayer as well. [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]I am convinced that the more Christlike the church becomes, the greater will be the backing of Heaven. The more we become a society of redeemers, the more hope we have to see our nation turned back to God. (Francis Frangipane)[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial,Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica]No matter what it looks like to anyone, there are people who are serving the Lord with a true heart, and are leading people to Christ like never before. What we must do, is do what Our Father has told us to do and not listen to the counsel of those who don't know Jesus as Savior and Lord of all![/FONT]

[/FONT]“Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation. “He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned. “These signs will accompany those who have believed: in My name they will cast out demons, they will speak with new tongues; they will pick up serpents, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.” So then, when the Lord Jesus had spoken to them, He was received up into heaven and sat down at the right hand of God. And they went out and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them, and confirmed the word by the signs that followed. Mark 16: 15 - 20 NASB

N&W

 

[SND411]

Yes, and not perpetrate it. Someone made mention of missionaries telling others the errors of their religions, even christian orthodoxy. I've had second-hand experience of this, witnessing how this works. How can one go to a country that has been christian for 2,000 years and tell its countrymen they are not the "right" kind of christians? erplexed

This issue is so multi-faceted. Anyway, who has a link to the original thread and/or article???

Does it matter how long a country has been Christian? Perhaps that just gives the church more time to mess things up. God is not a respector of persons, and has repeatedly stated in his Word how people who were supposed to know Him best forsook Him time and time again.

It seems both sides may have an ego problem.

 

[8HoursFromHome]

How about this scenario:

A group of people exist. There comes a time when there is a low birth rate among them. The elders/leaders of this group see that and encourage the practice of allowing the women to have multiple male partners. This practice increases the number of babies born to the group, thus increasing their numbers, saving them from extinction.

Christian missionaries invade this group, see this behavior and do everything in their power to stop this practice because it's not Christian.

This group is doing what it needs to do to save themselves from extinction. Is it right for the Christians to interfere?

 

[uniquely made]

God's main concern is that you're saved spiritually and not ending up in hell. That's the purpose of the missionaries, chuches and Christian teaching. He also knows that we all have sinned and will continue to sin. But He sent His son Jesus Christ to die on the cross because of our sins. He covers our sins and they aren't held against us ( immediate), if we ask Him to forgive us and turn from our sinful ways. Sometimes this is an immediate action, sometimes it's a process. Once you give your live to Him and choose to follow His ways, he begins to teach you a new way of life. Things you used to do no longer feel OK. Things you used to say, no longer are Ok in your heart. Not just because somebody told you. SPIRITUALLY you become awake. You're BORN AGAIN. This is the purpose of misssion work. Of course, sometimes missionaries Im sure get off track and begin to focus on human works instead of keeping their focus on God as Im sure all Christians have done. Im guilty of that myself. You see so much that's wrong and you want to fix and save everyone. But Gods order is for us to bring them the message and let the Holy Spirit work in that person. Some will accept Him, some won't.

Some people aren't given the opportunity to know about God because of where they live or how they were brought up. But god raises up people to reach them. Even in our very intelligent information filled country. I grew up going to church, but I don't remember them teaching about Jesus or salvation. I remember being asked if I wanted to be baptized (not a baptist church) so that I could go to heaven. I was about 7 or 8 and I finally did it in fear of not going to heaven. But I was also afraid of going in the pool of water. I still didn't know about Jesus other that seeing a few "pics" of HIm. I eventually stopped going to this church because even as a child I felt the church was legalistic. Everything was about how you dressed, if you wore make-up, if you wore jewelry, what you ate. All outer characteristics. Even before I knew God, I knew something was wrong with this theory about a loving God. Was that all He cared about? I went through my teens questioning if he really existed. Rationalizing everything I knew to be real. How could He be real? With so much distruction and "bad people". Why doesn't he just fix things? I would have. Then when I was about 22, in the middle of my messy life, God made himself real to ME. My eyes were opened and I began to feel and see the world differently. I began to see God in everyting I heard and did. Before I just lived and had no real awareness of Him, as He really was. I didn't know about any eternal consequences. Now I knew his name and had this book to tell me all about him. Just like anybody else He wants you to KNOW HIm. Like you know your parents, children, friends. I still sin , but know Im aware of how my actions, seen and unseen affect me and others and how God feels about them. And just like my parents, I don't want to disappoint Him. He always has my best interest at heart. Even when I don't understand. I want to please Him.

 

[CoilyFields]

How about this scenario:

A group of people exist. There comes a time when there is a low birth rate among them. The elders/leaders of this group see that and encourage the practice of allowing the women to have multiple male partners. This practice increases the number of babies born to the group, thus increasing their numbers, saving them from extinction.

Christian missionaries invade this group, see this behavior and do everything in their power to stop this practice because it's not Christian.

This group is doing what it needs to do to save themselves from extinction. Is it right for the Christians to interfere?

The great commission was for EVERY believer to go out and spread the gospel to the ends of the earth.
This is the Gospel: Sinful man needed a savior. Jesus Christ, God in the flesh, was crucified, buried, and ressurected, paying the penalty for our sins (death) and gifted us with salvation.

It is our responsibility to reach the masses...regardless of if we are perfect or not (that is the GIFT of salvation...you get it without earning it...can never really deserve it). The are certain believers/evangelists who are called out to be missionaries...to spread the gospel to remote places that otherwise wouldnt recieve the gift of eternal life.

It doesnt matter how long theyve been worshipping other gods (satan) or practicing witchcraft or other sacred abominations...my desire is for their souls to be saved and I would be basterdizing the Word of God if I compromised it to fit into their ungodly practices (if they have some that expressly go against Gods word). We must believe in the absolute truth of the word of God. We cannot confuse tolerance for acceptance. Tolerance=you have the right to choose your own beliefs and I love you regardless, Acceptance=your religion is just as right as mine is...if you (general you) believe that then you really must go examine your claim to christianity.

Think of sin as the disease of malaria. You go in and see this remote culture dying of malaria...trying to treat it with local remedies that actually make the person sicker and gaurantee death. You have the cure and vaccine for malaria...you would do all you could to get them to recieve this "gift of life". Yes, it is different from what theyre used to(needles and such) and they may very well reject it but YOU know that it is what they need. Your first priority is to get them to accept the cure/vaccine...LATER you work on showing them how "certain" aspects of their lifestyles are contributing to the spreading of the disease (dirty water etc)...Now just because you gave them the cure/vaccine doesnt mean that youre the healthiest person in the world...you may be overweight, dont wash your hands a lot lol etc...but you just offer them the cure and let it do the work in them that is still happening in you.

Sooooooooooooo to answer your question lol...God has deemed incest wrong in the old testament. (We know that it was previously acceptable to populate the earth and there were not the mutations that occur as a result today...so when it was no longer necessary...God odered it to cease and has never recanted that). This goes for everybody from that time forward. If they want their culture to survive...find a way to do it without going against the word of God! (Notice that the saving of their souls is the primary issue...show them other errors later on...gently, we dont force anything...the word will do the work as they learn)

Disclaimer: The scripture quoted about Paul was right on! There is a way to reach people that is not condescending, forceful or "westernizing" them. Adapt without compromise...

Also...historically it was not usually the missionaries that came in and did the damage...it was the explorers and settlers out for monetary gain that followed the missionaries that mistreated most natives. Nowadays those explorers/settlers are in the form of corporations out to exploit.

 

[Guitarhero]

Does it matter how long a country has been Christian? Perhaps that just gives the church more time to mess things up. God is not a respector of persons, and has repeatedly stated in his Word how people who were supposed to know Him best forsook Him time and time again.

It seems both sides may have an ego problem.

Sorry, but it's like a Reform Jew going to an Orthodox Jew and telling him what halacha (Jewish law) truly means. erplexed No ego except on the part of the prots who regularly proselytize family and friends. They tell people that their brand of ancient christianity is wrong and that they are living a lie and going to hell. look:

 

[SND411]

Sorry, but it's like a Reform Jew going to an Orthodox Jew and telling him what halacha (Jewish law) truly means. erplexed No ego except on the part of the prots who regularly proselytize family and friends. They tell people that their brand of ancient christianity is wrong and that they are living a lie and going to hell. look:

Well, what if it is wrong? Many (not all) so-called ancient churches have been riddled with man-made doctrine and traditions that have no BEARING whatsoever on one's salvation, the Word of God, nor have anything to do with the love of God. Like Revelations revealed, Christ can have a problem with ANY church regardless of how old it is.

If God claims to freely give wisdom to anybody (including those a part of a church that popped up five minutes ago), then I don't see how Christians can't discuss the values of true faith with other churches.

Plus, it shouldn't be ancient churches vs the new churches. Aren't we suppose to be one body and therefore one mind?

 

[Guitarhero]

Well, what if it is wrong? Many (not all) so-called ancient churches have been riddled with man-made doctrine and traditions that have no BEARING whatsoever on one's salvation, the Word of God, nor have anything to do with the love of God. Like Revelations revealed, Christ can have a problem with ANY church regardless of how old it is.

If God claims to freely give wisdom to anybody (including those a part of a church that popped up five minutes ago), then I don't see how Christians can't discuss the values of true faith with other churches.

Plus, it shouldn't be ancient churches vs the new churches. Aren't we suppose to be one body and therefore one mind?

That is an arrogant assumption. This is precisely why many of those people and myself are wary of "missionaries." Who are they to tell the ancient church directly descended from the apostles as commissioned by Christ that they are wrong? They are not treating them as one body...they are treating them as misinformed and they couldn't be further from the truth.

 

[LovingLady]

That is an arrogant assumption. This is precisely why many of those people and myself are wary of "missionaries." Who are they to tell the ancient church directly descended from the apostles they are wrong? They are not treating them as one body...they are treating them as misinformed and they couldn't be further from the truth.

I think she was referring to ancient church in the sense of time, not churches that were founded by the apostles. Even if a church was founded by an apostle there is still room for error. The apostles are not going to be around forever and once they are gone someone with a corrupt mind and heart could lie their way to the top and change the order of things (God forbid that this would happen). The important thing is that we should be able to communicate with people, show them what they are doing is wrong, and back it up with the Bible. God said to love his people, when you love someone you will correct and let them know when they are making a mistake.

 

[Guitarhero]

I think she was referring to ancient church in the sense of time, not churches that were founded by the apostles. Even if a church was founded by an apostle there is still room for error. The apostles are not going to be around forever and once they are gone someone with a corrupt mind and heart could lie their way to the top and change the order of things (God forbid that this would happen). The important thing is that we should be able to communicate with people, show them what they are doing is wrong, and back it up with the Bible. God said to love his people, when you love someone you will correct and let them know when they are making a mistake.

I've heard practically all the arguments and I think she is touching upon something else. The church period...founded upon the apostles sent out to found them. You can't have the church in ancient times not founded upon the apostles. I think that a little church history could clarify that point about corrupt people after. There were councils and such...but tradition as taught and passed on (it means scripture and tradition from Christ and kept traditions in Judaism) from the apostles were also taught to those directly under them. This is how there are vicars or popes, cardinals, bishops, priests and ministers. My post was very clear...people are telling folks who have been christian for 2,000 years that they are going to hell and to change to a new interpretation of the church minus the sacrificial eucharist. Now, how is somebody going to tell another who is steeped in the way as instituted by Christ and holding fast to it where he is wrong???? I think that this is the point being missed.

And just to bring this more central and personal, families have been broken, harmed, fights, etc. erupted from this kind of thing. I've witnessed it. Then some want to put a spiel that Jesus divides between those who will follow Him and between those who will not...this was man dividing and creating strife. And to make sure that I'm not being misunderstood, I hated the fact of the crusades and missionizing by the catholics, particularly in the past. None of this missioninzing, imho, had a darned thing to do with Christ. It was about economic gain through conquest and far too often, they are spy tools and scouts for raw materials used today in various countries. Not saying all...but it does exist. The point is deciphering true gospel witnessing like Black Robe and those the likes of Pat Robertson.

My greatest concern in this discussion, no transparency. It took the church centuries to address the various abuses (I'm not distinguishing protestant/orthodox here) it has committed. In most recent times, sexual abuse. Now most christians feel confident enough in their faith to talk against it and not fear they are insulting Jesus personally. When will the same happen concerning the missionaries? That is my point.

 

[SND411]

That is an arrogant assumption. This is precisely why many of those people and myself are wary of "missionaries." Who are they to tell the ancient church directly descended from the apostles as commissioned by Christ that they are wrong? They are not treating them as one body...they are treating them as misinformed and they couldn't be further from the truth.

This kind of thinking was what made it so hard for Jesus to get His message through some of the Pharisees. They believed since they were blood descendents of Abraham, they were automatically righteous, above reproach, and therefore dared anyone, including the Son of God Himself, to question their practices. In a way, Jesus WAS the new guy on the block speaking to an establishment way older than He Earthly was.

The ancient church is NOT God and therefore are not perfect.

And remember, many of the churches in Revelations descended from the Apostles, but Christ still had complaints against these communities. Weren't some of them even destroyed? Food for Thought.

 

[Laela]

Timely.... In our Bible study last night we read Romans 9, which speaks resoundingly to what you just said:

Romans 9

1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience also bearing me witness in the Holy Ghost,
2 That I have great heaviness and continual sorrow in my heart.
3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
9 For this is the word of promise, At this time will I come, and Sarah shall have a son.
10 And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth; )
12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

This kind of thinking was what made it so hard for Jesus to get His message through some of the Pharisees. They believed since they were blood descendents of Abraham, they were automatically righteous, above reproach, and therefore dared anyone, including the Son of God Himself, to question their practices. In a way, Jesus WAS the new guy on the block speaking to an establishment way older than He Earthly was.

The ancient church is NOT God and therefore are not perfect.

And remember, many of the churches in Revelations descended from the Apostles, but Christ still had complaints against these communities. Weren't some of them even destroyed? Food for Thought.

 

[Guitarhero]

This kind of thinking was what made it so hard for Jesus to get His message through some of the Pharisees. They believed since they were blood descendents of Abraham, they were automatically righteous, above reproach, and therefore dared anyone, including the Son of God Himself, to question their practices. In a way, Jesus WAS the new guy on the block speaking to an establishment way older than He Earthly was.

The ancient church is NOT God and therefore are not perfect.

And remember, many of the churches in Revelations descended from the Apostles, but Christ still had complaints against these communities. Weren't some of them even destroyed? Food for Thought.

Sigh...I truly think study on the history of the church would shed light on this topic. They are following exactly how Jesus laid it down. But of course, someone else takes offense when it's not their church (missionaries) and they wish to change them. It's not about them not finding salvation, they eat and drink Him weekly, some daily. You can't get any closer physically and spiritually to Jesus and I'll leave it to that. The orthodox will know what I'm talking about. Others, not so much.

Let's bring this central to the U.S. Say there is a baptist church and some pentecostal comes to this neighborhood and proselytizes those who attend, telling them they are blind and going to hell because they wear pants and truly don't know Jesus. They should not watch t.v. on Sunday or better yet, they should have Saturday as the Sabbath or go to hell. Shrugs. Does that make sense now? What if they attacked the evangelicals? The methodists? What if those attacked the pentecostals? This is arrogance and haughtiness and has nothing at all to do with Jesus. He is the way. What if somebody said that you can't use the NIV but only KJV? Vice versa? It's brother against brother. There is no such need for this yet it exists. And I'm sincerely telling you that there are many missionary organizations that are nothing more than spy nests. Perhaps some of the participants are innocent...the lady in Haiti who detained for "kidnapping" kids? Nobody else was truly aware of her previous actions in the DR and Haiti. Sigh....sigh....alas.

And unrelated yet pertinent, when I think of the failures of this u.s. govt., I have to look back on the founding fathers and their philosophies which were based upon racist untruths. That is the source of much of the failure. So if I apply this to this type of false missionizing, I'm able to see more clearly just how wrong many of them are in coercing others to believe in a level of Jesus they themselves simply haven't yet found.

 

[missusM]

HONESTLY i don't think you read my other post further down. I think you read my FIRST post and reacted.

sorry, if i did that,, i'm was tryiing to get to everything but must have missed some. I see the discussion has moved on from that however..

Like you say it is interesting that they use the term "savage" in this day and age, its downright archaic. ok i'm gonna read the rest and just watch...

 

[missusM]

tarheelgurl, was the DEtroit thing a jab at me? i just read that comment.. i was like who what did where now...?????
1. i'm not from Detroit, i live here ( temporarily), i'm from the UK.
2. I might only be passing through but i can bet my last dollar that whoever said that Detroit was full of savages was a white redneck with a lot of hate in em
3. you dont need to send Christians here , its full of em

wowser

 

[Shimmie]

I'm not lumping anyone together.

I'm asking other Christians how they feel about these particular groups of Christians behavior regarding their invasion of a non-Christian group for their (supposed) benefit.

First of all... The earth is the Lord's and the fullness thereof and they and ALL that dwell therein. (Psalm 24:1) For He hath founded it upon the seas and established it upon the floods.

Who shall ascend into His holy place? He that hath clean hands and a pure heart....

They are committing this activity on God's earth... not theirs.

Second: We have been commanded by Jesus (who is God), to go into ALL the world and preach the Gospel.

Obviously this culture has been taken over by the enemy's deception and is misplacing the natural use of the body.

One thing I don't understand is why are the folks who defend this culture's behaviour, calling them savages?

Why deprive them of knowing the love of God and entering into His holy hill? It's more selfish and quite cruel to allow them to drown in their sin and not have a chance to know Jesus and the life God intended for them to have.

 

[Crown]

How about this scenario:

A group of people exist. There comes a time when there is a low birth rate among them. The elders/leaders of this group see that and encourage the practice of allowing the women to have multiple male partners. This practice increases the number of babies born to the group, thus increasing their numbers, saving them from extinction.

Christian missionaries invade this group, see this behavior and do everything in their power to stop this practice because it's not Christian.

This group is doing what it needs to do to save themselves from extinction. Is it right for the Christians to interfere?

I don’t understand this scenario : allowing the women to have multiple male partners to increase the population?!?
Why do this?


Unless impotence, infertility or contraception, a husband is fully able to get his wife pregnant every 1-2 years, like for our grandparents.
...............

[FONT=&quot]Jude 1: 23 save others by snatching them from the fire; to others show mercy, mixed with fear—hating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh.[/FONT]