Books before Boys because Boys bring Babies?

Nayeli

Nayeli

Well-Known Member
I was pondering the tail-end of SK's thread where Bunny and Hopeful were speaking about the possible effects of continuously avoiding relationships.

I know many (not all) of us were raised with this rhetoric and anyone who frequents the rel/ship forum knows that we have conflicting feelings about this message.

I'd like to know whether this is the message that is going to be passed on to our daughters (given pregnancy rates, STD's, manipulative men, daughter's age etc.) or whether given the situation that Hopeful articulated (the epidemic of unloved, educated women), mothers will be changing the tune and advising their daughters to balance relationships and academics and other responsibilities.
 
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That applies 100% from Pre-K to High School, and I'll be singing it loud and clear - children/young adults should be focused on their education - that is their main responsibility during childhood, in my mind.

Once they have graduated high school/are entering college - they are preparing for the rest of their adult life - in all of it's fullness. And if marriage and children are in the plans as part of that full life - then you need to let that childish mantra go.
 
Nayeli said:
I was pondering the tail-end of SK's thread where Bunny and Hopeful were speaking about the possible effects of continuously avoiding relationships.

I know many (not all) of us were raised with this rhetoric and anyone who frequents the rel/ship forum knows that we have conflicting feelings about this message.

I'd like to know whether this is the message that is going to be passed on to our daughters (given pregnancy rates, STD's, manipulative men, daughter's age etc.) or whether given the situation that Hopeful articulated (the epidemic of unloved, educated women), mothers will be changing the tune and advising their daughters to balance relationships and academics and other responsibilities.
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I plan on educating my future daughter on balancing relationships with academics before she moves away to uni and is surrounded with 15,000 boys.
 
I think I will put a lot of emphasis on her getting a sound education, but being open to genuine love when the opportunity presents itself. But this is provided that she's mature enough.
 
Nayeli said:
I was pondering the tail-end of SK's thread where Bunny and Hopeful were speaking about the possible effects of continuously avoiding relationships.

I know many (not all) of us were raised with this rhetoric and anyone who frequents the rel/ship forum knows that we have conflicting feelings about this message.

I'd like to know whether this is the message that is going to be passed on to our daughters (given pregnancy rates, STD's, manipulative men, daughter's age etc.) or whether given the situation that Hopeful articulated (the epidemic of unloved, educated women), mothers will be changing the tune and advising their daughters to balance relationships and academics and other responsibilities.
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I understand the thought behind this message.

Usually the people giving it were folks who got "caught up" by a boy and saw their life altered because they ended up having to care for a baby instead of finishing school when they planned, marrying later (and possibly a different person), going to work menial jobs instead of doing something they loved because they didn't have the luxury/education to do so, etc., etc.

So they want their daughters to have a better life... but they're overly strict about it. The result usually is one of two options.

1. Smart girl is sheltered and naive and gets to college and suddenly discovers the world of boys. One peanut-head boy spits some lame line and she's in love because she doesn't know better. She gets caught up with that boy, or goes wild and crazy with boys in general because she's away from mama's strict rules. A baby can follow, which supposedly proves mama's point, but not really...

Or there are no pregnancies/STDs, but she becomes emotionally scarred from the process of being used and abused by men that she gets in a cycle in which her relationships are always bad... she doesn't know better.

2. She stays away from boys and becomes Miss Academic Super-Achiever. She figures that boys/men will come along eventually when the "time is right" and after she gets all those degrees she was raised to earn. But her emotional growth is stunted and she reaches late 20s-early 30s realizing that she knows NOTHING about dating and relationships and has no clue where to start. She surpressed that part of herself for so long that she doesn't even know how to find it... and then her family wonders why she doesn't have a man yet. :rolleyes: Usually she tries to hide her pain and loneliness in girlfriends, family, work and church... oh, and when she finally does begin dating, she could end up in the same situation as Girl No. 1, just older.

I equate that phrase to the "keep your panties up and dress down" sex talk that some of our foremothers got.

All it does is give black women some of the highest STD and unplanned pregnancy rates in the USA, along with the lowest marriage rates, so obviously THIS AIN'T WORKIN'!
 
Interesting question. I think that it's about learning what to look for, the right type of relationships to develop. The right relationship with the right young man is not going to detract young women from their goals, but will encourage them to do what they need to do and improve themselves. It's a positive thing, imo, when it's (again) the right thing.
 
I just feel like if we are telling our daughters this, we should tell our sons this as well, esp. since they are the one's helping to bring the babies. :ohwell:

I love my mom sooooooooooooooo much. She told me to keep in the books, but didn't do it to the point of discouraging me from dating and socializing in college, I feel it helped me to develop in alot of areas and allowed me to see what I did and didn't want in a man and out of life.

My mom also drilled my brother on no babies before books, and he dates but he knows he doesn't want any kids until he is married, and he doesn't want to be married until he gets himself together, i.e. finish university and start in his career. I am so proud of him.
 
My mom balanced it. I was raised to get married and have kids. Family was always the focus. My mom put as great an influence on getting an education as she did finding a mate and having a family. My mom was a professional but she was also a mother and very devoted to family. One thing she was never a proponent of was being a SAHM but that's a whole other thread.
 
I just want to note that I never heard this statement from my mother. She expected that I would date as part of my educational experience, but I think she expected that these things would just happen naturally (dating, marriage, kids, etc.)... and that if I stayed focused on the educational part, the rest would come along with the process.

Which didn't exactly happen, but at least I wasn't deliberately stifled.

I did get the message from some outsiders (aunts, older college students, etc.) who were usually the ones who had to drop out of school because of pregnancy or something like that. Or I heard it from dudes who were doing their fair share of screwing around, but felt like I was a "little sister" and wanted to "warn" me about their kind... yeah, whatever... in one ear and out the other. I usually argued folks down too about it.
 
^^^ I did hear it from my mother. I think she thought along the same lines that yours may have - that everything would fall into place. Looking back, I see that she was trying to give me the encouragement to pursue my education, because her mother had not given her the same. But I was NEVER spoken to about rel/ships - only the books. Even as a straight A student, I was STILL counseled about the books.

I think Vanity also raised a wonderful point about the message having not been drilled into boys as it has been with girls.
 
Bunny77 said:
I just want to note that I never heard this statement from my mother. She expected that I would date as part of my educational experience, but I think she expected that these things would just happen naturally (dating, marriage, kids, etc.)... and that if I stayed focused on the educational part, the rest would come along with the process.

Which didn't exactly happen, but at least I wasn't deliberately stifled.

I did get the message from some outsiders (aunts, older college students, etc.) who were usually the ones who had to drop out of school because of pregnancy or something like that. Or I heard it from dudes who were doing their fair share of screwing around, but felt like I was a "little sister" and wanted to "warn" me about their kind... yeah, whatever... in one ear and out the other. I usually argued folks down too about it.
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I completely agree with this. and I'd like to add, I think the women in my mom's generation did not have to deal with such a shortage of guys.
or at least such a shortage of guys in higher education (i.e. with the same credentials).

also, the ones who had the same credentials wern't into being "players" back then. it was honorable to get married and start a family and take care of said family. now guys want to see how far they can get- how many women they can have. big pimpin poppin bottles etc. not to mention the relatively new fascination with exociticism. that wasn't accepted back in the day.

so yes, my mom said something similar to what Bunny said, but she didn't know guys my age would turn out so crazy LOL
 
Yeah, my parents raised me with that idea, and I see it with a lot of foreign people too. (not just African, my Indian friends say the same thing). The only thing that bothers me is that they will "forbid" you from dating until you come home with a doctoral degree and then they start badgering you about why you aren't married. Like wth.
 
freelove said:
Yeah, my parents raised me with that idea, and I see it with a lot of foreign people too. (not just African, my Indian friends say the same thing). The only thing that bothers me is that they will "forbid" you from dating until you come home with a doctoral degree and then they start badgering you about why you aren't married. Like wth.
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Now that would be very frustrating.

I think I was fortunate on two counts. First, my mom learned from an aunt of hers that college was a good place to meet your husband. This aunt called my mom and told her to share this with me, as well as an older cousin of mine who also met her husband in college. Anyway, the thinking was simply that it was the only time in your life when almost everyone is single and you would have so many options. In the workforce so many people are already married. The thinking was that after college it gets harder and harder. The funny thing though is that I tried to ignore her, I had no intentions of getting married so young, I just wanted a boyfriend, but I think that what she told me stuck with me.

The second thing was something my mother was told by a co-worker/mentor. She told my mom not to buy into how fulfilling a career is. Now my mom and this woman were career women but the point this lady made to my mom was that a job/career will never love you back like a person and so it is very important to not get sooo tied up in a career that you forget about relationships.

Education was really pushed in my family BUT so was the importance of having a mate and a family. I don't think I realized how fortunate I was to have this info. I will also add that I am a lot older than a lot of you ladies so times were different when I was college. I really don't know what it's like for you ladies in the current environment. When I was in college there were some no good men, that's for sure, but a lot of the young men I was around sought marriage and did not think being trifling was cute. I was in school before the hip-hop era and the video era too, so I think that may also be a part of it. I don't even remember hearing about AIDS either, I don't think it had become widespread until after I had graduated.

Are the guys really that bad? I mean like there are no decent, nice guys in undergrad who want to take a girl out to the movies or out to dinner? I guess I'm just wondering if ladies are avoiding relationships and turning down decent guys or if they simply are focussing on school because the percentage of no-good men is so high and no one is pursuing them for a relationship anyway.
 
Hopeful, answering your question from my personal experience, I found there to be numerous quality young men in college.

I kept turning guys down because I guess I figured that as far as rel/ships are concerned, there'd always be time for that later.......and later......and later.

Till one day I think I checked myself and asked how much later was I thinking about.
 
hopeful said:
Are the guys really that bad? I mean like there are no decent, nice guys in undergrad who want to take a girl out to the movies or out to dinner? I guess I'm just wondering if ladies are avoiding relationships and turning down decent guys or if they simply are focussing on school because the percentage of no-good men is so high and no one is pursuing them for a relationship anyway.
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This is a good question. I don't know really.

When I was in undergrad in the late 90s, I had a boyfriend who would take me to the movies or dinner. I went out with a few others who did the same. Nothing really expensive or high-maintenance, but I was asked to a movie or two or to go to Friday's or something like that.

These guys were not the ones at the parties or the various hang-out places. I met them in class, the dorms, activity groups, etc.

So I have to believe that "some" nice guys are still out there in undergrad, but they might be the ones you meet in non-social settings, maybe.
 
There needs to be a balance but their isn't it seems.

Its either go to school and get your education and worry about getting married later OR go to school and find you a husband which both could end up in unsatisfactory results.

Because you were raised to focus on education and career, you then find yourself at age 35 with no husband and everyone is telling you that you missed the boat and should've been more focused on family rather than your 4 degrees.

The ones who did happen to snag their man in college because she was raised to find one soon and start a family, may get looked down on because she doesnt have the career and education that the single woman has...or has to get hers MUCH later because she started a family.

I see that a lot on this board. The single, educated, great career minded woman who has a big salary enough to support a family of 5.. VS. the SAHM who has found her true love and has a family.

So some women are being told to find their husband in college..while others are being told to study those books before worrying about snaggin' a husband and having babies. Cause you can do that AFTER you get your education. You need to do both and hope that one side doesnt suffer.

Its either be a career woman or be a wife/mother. Most of us werent given instructions on how to do BOTH. I was raised to go to school..I did...Now my mom wants to know when i'm gonna get married and bring her some grandkids! If she had told me to focus on snaggin a husband in college, she'd probably have 3 grandkids by now.
 
Also, do any of you ladies get the same encouragement and enthusiam about finding a husband NOW as you did when you were getting your education and starting a career?

I look back at all the time, extra money, care packages, etc. that was given to me during my time in school. Telling me to pray over this exam, moving me in and out of dorms, making sure my life wasnt too complicated so i could just STUDY and FINISH.

Now its time to snag a husband. I dont get no help with that. :lachen:

She wants grandkids but doesnt seem to know where i can snag a husband? Why isnt she at church or asking her friends about some prospects? Dont get much dating tips. I got study habit and financial aid tips though...
 
MizzBrown, both of your posts were excellent. I have not found that many look down on me for being a sahm though. I think that may be because I live such a nice life. I get the most envy from working mothers who have to work. Single women I run into tend to be nicer to me and often admire me as well. I am a sahm but I pursue all that I do with passion and professionalism. The thing is that I can go to law school or get an MBA if I wanted to, not saying it would be easy, but I believe it would be easier than finding a good partner and having children once you are 35-plus. Having a successful family and homelife takes as much work, struggle, and sacrifice as building a successful career. I think that is overlooked by ladies who think they have so much time to have a family and put it on the backburner.
 
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I hope this doesn't sound weird.

I was raised with an emphasis on education. I did not even have the chance to hang out with friends outside of school. I want my daughters (and sons) to have social lives. I do want them to well-educated, but I want to make sure they hang out with friends, date, and when the time is right, have normal sex lives. I do not want them to miss out on everything I did.

I will however stress no sex before the age of 18, and that if they do choose to, there better be condoms and other forms of birth control. I want my children to know the consequences of their actions.
 
hopeful said:
Now that would be very frustrating.

I think I was fortunate on two counts. First, my mom learned from an aunt of hers that college was a good place to meet your husband. This aunt called my mom and told her to share this with me, as well as an older cousin of mine who also met her husband in college. Anyway, the thinking was simply that it was the only time in your life when almost everyone is single and you would have so many options. In the workforce so many people are already married. The thinking was that after college it gets harder and harder. The funny thing though is that I tried to ignore her, I had no intentions of getting married so young, I just wanted a boyfriend, but I think that what she told me stuck with me.

The second thing was something my mother was told by a co-worker/mentor. She told my mom not to buy into how fulfilling a career is. Now my mom and this woman were career women but the point this lady made to my mom was that a job/career will never love you back like a person and so it is very important to not get sooo tied up in a career that you forget about relationships.

Education was really pushed in my family BUT so was the importance of having a mate and a family. I don't think I realized how fortunate I was to have this info. I will also add that I am a lot older than a lot of you ladies so times were different when I was college. I really don't know what it's like for you ladies in the current environment. When I was in college there were some no good men, that's for sure, but a lot of the young men I was around sought marriage and did not think being trifling was cute. I was in school before the hip-hop era and the video era too, so I think that may also be a part of it. I don't even remember hearing about AIDS either, I don't think it had become widespread until after I had graduated.

Are the guys really that bad? I mean like there are no decent, nice guys in undergrad who want to take a girl out to the movies or out to dinner? I guess I'm just wondering if ladies are avoiding relationships and turning down decent guys or if they simply are focussing on school because the percentage of no-good men is so high and no one is pursuing them for a relationship anyway.
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I have friends of all races that are single( very pretty and smart) because all guys want is sex and we don't give that before marriage. They wouldn't turn down good guys either. We are more marriage minded and now guys these days aren't really looking for that.
 
I really don't know what me or my friends are going to do. Have no idea. I think I am pretty balanced (my mother taught me pretty balanced)but that doesn't mean that the guys will come flocking.
 
Bunny77 said:
I understand the thought behind this message.

Usually the people giving it were folks who got "caught up" by a boy and saw their life altered because they ended up having to care for a baby instead of finishing school when they planned, marrying later (and possibly a different person), going to work menial jobs instead of doing something they loved because they didn't have the luxury/education to do so, etc., etc.

So they want their daughters to have a better life... but they're overly strict about it. The result usually is one of two options.

1. Smart girl is sheltered and naive and gets to college and suddenly discovers the world of boys. One peanut-head boy spits some lame line and she's in love because she doesn't know better. She gets caught up with that boy, or goes wild and crazy with boys in general because she's away from mama's strict rules. A baby can follow, which supposedly proves mama's point, but not really...

Or there are no pregnancies/STDs, but she becomes emotionally scarred from the process of being used and abused by men that she gets in a cycle in which her relationships are always bad... she doesn't know better.

2. She stays away from boys and becomes Miss Academic Super-Achiever. She figures that boys/men will come along eventually when the "time is right" and after she gets all those degrees she was raised to earn. But her emotional growth is stunted and she reaches late 20s-early 30s realizing that she knows NOTHING about dating and relationships and has no clue where to start. She surpressed that part of herself for so long that she doesn't even know how to find it... and then her family wonders why she doesn't have a man yet. :rolleyes: Usually she tries to hide her pain and loneliness in girlfriends, family, work and church... oh, and when she finally does begin dating, she could end up in the same situation as Girl No. 1, just older.

I equate that phrase to the "keep your panties up and dress down" sex talk that some of our foremothers got.

All it does is give black women some of the highest STD and unplanned pregnancy rates in the USA, along with the lowest marriage rates, so obviously THIS AIN'T WORKIN'!
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Thank you Thank you Thank you
 
Nayeli said:
But I was NEVER spoken to about rel/ships - only the books. Even as a straight A student, I was STILL counseled about the books
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Same. Men, boys , sex and dating were taboo subjects that were never discussed. If they were mentioned, they were mentioned in a very negative light, as if to say only loose women and whores dated and entertained boys. Good , God fearing and obedient girls kept to their books and achieved academic scholarship.
In addition all girls that entertained boys became pregnant and ruined thier lives. I heard constant stories from my mother and father about some their classmates and the bad men that ruined their lives and left them with umpteeth children, broken heart and bitter feelings.

Sigh...I have so much mental garbage to wade through.
 
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Lovelylife said:
I have friends of all races that are single( very pretty and smart) because all guys want is sex and we don't give that before marriage. They wouldn't turn down good guys either. We are more marriage minded and now guys these days aren't really looking for that.
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Lovelylife said:
I really don't know what me or my friends are going to do. Have no idea. I think I am pretty balanced (my mother taught me pretty balanced)but that doesn't mean that the guys will come flocking.
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Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I know it must be really hard.

Yemaya said:
Same. Men, boys , sex and dating were taboo subjects that were never discussed. If they were mentioned, they were mentioned in a very negative light, as if to say only loose women and whores dated and entertained boys. Good , God fearing and obedient girls kept to their books and achieved academic scholarship.
In addition all girls that entertained boys became pregnant and ruined thier lives. I heard constant stories from my mother and father about some their classmates and the bad men that ruined their lives and left them with umpteeth children, broken heart and bitter feelings.

Sigh...I have so much mental garbage to wade through.
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At least now you realize how negative those stories were. Little by little you can change how you look at men and relationships.
 
MizzBrown said:
There needs to be a balance but their isn't it seems.

Its either go to school and get your education and worry about getting married later OR go to school and find you a husband which both could end up in unsatisfactory results.

Because you were raised to focus on education and career, you then find yourself at age 35 with no husband and everyone is telling you that you missed the boat and should've been more focused on family rather than your 4 degrees.

The ones who did happen to snag their man in college because she was raised to find one soon and start a family, may get looked down on because she doesnt have the career and education that the single woman has...or has to get hers MUCH later because she started a family.

I see that a lot on this board. The single, educated, great career minded woman who has a big salary enough to support a family of 5.. VS. the SAHM who has found her true love and has a family.

So some women are being told to find their husband in college..while others are being told to study those books before worrying about snaggin' a husband and having babies. Cause you can do that AFTER you get your education. You need to do both and hope that one side doesnt suffer.

Its either be a career woman or be a wife/mother. Most of us werent given instructions on how to do BOTH. I was raised to go to school..I did...Now my mom wants to know when i'm gonna get married and bring her some grandkids! If she had told me to focus on snaggin a husband in college, she'd probably have 3 grandkids by now.
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But women back in the 40s and 50s were going to college, too - to meet husbands usually. And usually they would become sahm's after marriage.

I think the problem came in with the increase of divorce. With the men gone, the women could barely support themselves and didn't have a leg to stand on in the workplace.

So, it seems we're told to make sure we get that education AND a career, just in case, because we may or may not meet a man who takes care of us...and we may or may not get divorced and we'd better be prepared.

Not that this solves the whole equation b/c we all know women who did have a career before marriage and for whatever reason after 10 years they get divorced and still have to start at the bottom of the corporate ladder all over again.

I guess there is no solution.

For me, I wish I had just been a little more confident in myself (not in High School but in college) b/c I do feel like I missed out on learning a lot about myself and a lot about the opposite sex. But at the same time, I don't regret not having relationships back then b/c I know so much more now...and don't feel like I need to actually touch the hot stove to know it's hot. Know what I mean?

With my own children (someday, hopefully), I would like for them to build healthy relationships with the opposite sex but I plan to prepare them ahead of time and raising my children as Christians, I hope to be able to trust them to have Christ-centered relationships in High School, college, and so forth.
 
We give our daughters this "sound" advice, but what advice do we give our sons and how effective is this message? I, for one, will tell my son something along the lines such as..."books before girls...girls will always be around". Yes, something along those lines as not to put girls in a negative light toward him. I don't have a daughter, but if I did, I think I could get the message across a little better than saying,"..boys bring babies".
 
This is a really interesting thread. I have always felt bad for marrying so early. I didn't have my first child until I was 24. Education was pushed on me, (not so much by my parents) but of course my focus was more on relationships and family. I never thought about what would have happened if I had put education and career first.
 
sanserity30 said:
This is a really interesting thread. I have always felt bad for marrying so early. I didn't have my first child until I was 24. Education was pushed on me, (not so much by my parents) but of course my focus was more on relationships and family. I never thought about what would have happened if I had put education and career first.
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If you had put your education and career first then you'd be nearly 40 years old with no husband or family..BUT you'd have a killer salary, great credentials and respect on the corporate ladder.

Maybe? Maybe not?:look:

I mean, the women who chose to focus on family could do the same but it would take her longer because she has to answer to husband and children. If a career opportunity knocks and wants her to move to a different time zone, she has to ask hubby and decide if its the right decision to uproot her children from school, make hubby quit his job, etc.

A single woman who puts career first, can just say "Okay, I'll take it!" and start packin up her U-Haul truck and take that new position. Hell, she only has to answer to her pet cat or dog...thus giving her more money and independence.
 
One thing I have noticed with my older White Mommy friends is that some of them will facilitate friendships AND boyfriend/girlfriend relationships for their children. I don't know any Black Mommy friends who do this type of thing. I found it very strange at first, that one Mom I worked with was encouraging her son to date, going out of her way to make sure he had flowers and detailed plans for special occasions, etc. Also, one lady planned this elaborate showy "romantic" antic for her son so that he could ask out his crush. I thought this was all so strange, I totally didn't get it until I had my own son. They were both showing their sons how to be gentleman in relationships, how to go about getting the type of woman you want, and encouraging respectful relationships so at the end of the day their sons would know how to treat a woman and get to know what kind of qualities are important to them in the long run. I totally "get it." It seemed like at the time they were encouraging their sons to be "fast" and pushing them into relationships and social situations they otherwise would not want to be in, but I totally see what they were doing now looking back.
 
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