Real Talk....

[gymfreak336]

What shampoo would be considered as having a "lower ph"?

The only ones I can think of my name are the elasta qp poo's and joico shampoo's. Both have the ph listed on the bottle. Most companies don't list it on the bottle. If you have a favorite poo just email the company. I am working on gathering info from many brands to give us a more comprehensive list.

 

[Empress Yahudah]

Gymfreak
The only ones I can think of my name are the elasta qp poo's and joico shampoo's. Both have the ph listed on the bottle. Most companies don't list it on the bottle. If you have a favorite poo just email the company. I am working on gathering info from many brands to give us a more comprehensive list.

That would be great.. I noticed when I was looking at Paul Mitchell products that they didnt have them on there either

 

[gymfreak336]

That would be great.. I noticed when I was looking at Paul Mitchell products that they didnt have them on there either

I emailed them yesterday. I think Artemis knows some of the pH's of some of their conditioners but that is it.

 

[Jhuidah]

This is a great thread! The mention of the pH of shampoos and conditioners has really made me think.

I recently purchased some Elucence Volume Clarifying Shampoo (which has clarifying and chelating ingredients), and the label makes mention of the pH, which I believe is 4.5-5.5. Does the lower pH help to clarify/chelate the hair? Whatever the case, it worked really well with only one lather and didn't strip my hair completely.

 

[gymfreak336]

This is a great thread! The mention of the pH of shampoos and conditioners has really made me think.

I recently purchased some Elucence Volume Clarifying Shampoo (which has clarifying and chelating ingredients), and the label makes mention of the pH, which I believe is 4.5-5.5. Does the lower pH help to clarify/chelate the hair? Whatever the case, it worked really well with only one lather and didn't strip my hair completely.

It didn't strip your hair because you natural pH of the scalp is in that range. I don't know about the correlation between pH and clarify/chelate (gimme a week and I will be back).

 

[EMJazzy]

The only ones I can think of my name are the elasta qp poo's and joico shampoo's. Both have the ph listed on the bottle. Most companies don't list it on the bottle. If you have a favorite poo just email the company. I am working on gathering info from many brands to give us a more comprehensive list.

Ok I will be looking out for your comprehensive list.

 

[sunshinebeautiful]

Nice post, Gymfreak. Now I finally understand that I have fine hair.

 

[Aggie]

All I can say is...WOW! Gymfreak, I had to save this in my favorites folder as a point of future reference. A Resounding Thank You! If you gat anymore of this helpful info bottled up inside you, please, by all means, share. We love this.

 

[Artemis]

Hey everybody

Just wanted to clarify some things in case you all were unaware...I know I posted before that there are different types of shampoos, and while I only talked a/b clarifying and chelating shampoos, it's important to know about the other kinds as well.

The pH of shampoo can range from 4-8.5 The pH of hair and scalp is 4.5-5.5. So if your shampoo says that it is "pH-balanced", this usually means that the shampoo fits in the same range as the hair and scalp, which is a good thing As long as your shampoo is in this 4.5-5.5 range your scalp will be ok. Any pH higher than that can breed bacteria of the scalp and cause and/or irritate dandruff, flakiness and bad odor erplexed

Typical "conditioning shampoos" - Motions Lavish, Keracare Hydrating/Detangling are two I can think of - generally have pH on the higher end of the range...maybe around 5, and sometimes have a pH of 6 or more. 2n1 shampoo/conditioner formulas also fit in this category. When washing using these shampoos,you have the perception that your hair is getting moisturized and it feels sooo good, but really, these formulas are opening your cuticle wide open and leaving it like that, allowing the moisture to evaporate.

The only reason I can see someone using a higher pH shampoo (meaning pH 5.5+) would be if a person's hair is non-porous and the cuticles are closed so tightly that moisture cannot get in, that means that the pH is probably a little lower than normal and to get the hair's cuticle to open to deposit moisture, a higher pH is needed to get the hair to the 4.5-5.5 range and enhance pliability as well.

 

[winterinatl]

Hey everybody

Just wanted to clarify some things in case you all were unaware...I know I posted before that there are different types of shampoos, and while I only talked a/b clarifying and chelating shampoos, it's important to know about the other kinds as well.

The pH of shampoo can range from 4-8.5 The pH of hair and scalp is 4.5-5.5. So if your shampoo says that it is "pH-balanced", this usually means that the shampoo fits in the same range as the hair and scalp, which is a good thing As long as your shampoo is in this 4.5-5.5 range your scalp will be ok. Any pH higher than that can breed bacteria of the scalp and cause and/or irritate dandruff, flakiness and bad odor erplexed

Typical "conditioning shampoos" - Motions Lavish, Keracare Hydrating/Detangling are two I can think of - generally have pH on the higher end of the range...maybe around 5, and sometimes have a pH of 6 or more. 2n1 shampoo/conditioner formulas also fit in this category. When washing using these shampoos,you have the perception that your hair is getting moisturized and it feels sooo good, but really, these formulas are opening your cuticle wide open and leaving it like that, allowing the moisture to evaporate.

The only reason I can see someone using a higher pH shampoo (meaning pH 5.5+) would be if a person's hair is non-porous and the cuticles are closed so tightly that moisture cannot get in, that means that the pH is probably a little lower than normal and to get the hair's cuticle to open to deposit moisture, a higher pH is needed to get the hair to the 4.5-5.5 range and enhance pliability as well.

Okaaaaayyyy!!

Now, because my Keracare shampoo leaves my cutes wide open, then that should mean that I can then use a reconstructor sucessfully, like Aphogee 2min. keratin treatment? I always thought I must clarify to remove buildup, so that the protein could enter.

This is very valuable information for me...and I must say I'm a bit ashamed b/c my stylist told me I didn't need to clarify for the protein treatment, i could use the moisture shampoo - I didn't believe her

 

[nappity]

ah! i see I'm learning to be extra gentle as the strands of my hair are very fragile

i find that i have to put the stuff in while my hair is wet. putting anything on dry hair for me is a waste of product

Same here!

 

[Artemis]

Okaaaaayyyy!!

Now, because my Keracare shampoo leaves my cutes wide open, then that should mean that I can then use a reconstructor sucessfully, like Aphogee 2min. keratin treatment? I always thought I must clarify to remove buildup, so that the protein could enter.

This is very valuable information for me...and I must say I'm a bit ashamed b/c my stylist told me I didn't need to clarify for the protein treatment, i could use the moisture shampoo - I didn't believe her

Is your hair non-porous? Buildup on the strands and the natural characteristics of your hair strand are two different things. If your cuticles are opened too wide, you lose any conditioning properties that you are trying to infuse into the hair, making that treatment a waste of product.

 

[thegirltolove]

Wow, I feel enlightened. This is such great information!

Can you ladies inform us on how exactly we are to know if we have thick strands or not? I know it seems like a dumb question, but I don't exactly go around comparing my strands with other folks...

Also, is the porosity test the thing where you put a hair strand in a glass of water to see if it sinks?

 

[Artemis]

Wow, I feel enlightened. This is such great information!

Can you ladies inform us on how exactly we are to know if we have thick strands or not? I know it seems like a dumb question, but I don't exactly go around comparing my strands with other folks...

Also, is the porosity test the thing where you put a hair strand in a glass of water to see if it sinks?

Gymfreak told me once that you can tell by taking a ball-point pen and drawing a straight line on a piece of paper, and then hold a strand of shed hair next to it. If the hair strand is thicker than the line, your hair is coarse; if it's thinner, then it's fine, and if it's about the same size it's medium/normal.

And yes, you can test your porosity by doing the "sink test". Make sure your hair is clean and product-free first, though.

 

[winterinatl]

Is your hair non-porous? Buildup on the strands and the natural characteristics of your hair strand are two different things. If your cuticles are opened too wide, you lose any conditioning properties that you are trying to infuse into the hair, making that treatment a waste of product.

No, I wouldn't consider it porous.

I just did it a few days ago (reconstructor) and the results were good. But if the moistuizing poo is enough to widen the cuticles for the protein, the I'd much rather do that then use the more drying shampoo.

 

[MrsBKJ]

Wow thank you for this! It makes lots of sense and makes things so much easier...I'm seconding this be made a sticky...I hardly ever rate anything but I am giving this 5 *'s

Thanks again girl for sharing

Uzz

 

[gymfreak336]

No, I wouldn't consider it porous.

I just did it a few days ago (reconstructor) and the results were good. But if the moistuizing poo is enough to widen the cuticles for the protein, the I'd much rather do that then use the more drying shampoo.

Your clarifier shouldn't leave you feeling stripped. If so you might want to try a different one. The thing is in the long term, shampoo's that open your cuticles WIDE open (if you don't have a extremely tight cuticle) dry out the hair more in the long run.

 

[gorgeoushair]

Thanks Gym

Very informative thread.......How can you tell if your cuticle is tight or wide? I used Motions Lavish last night after neutralizing poo.........

 

[gymfreak336]

Thanks Gym

Very informative thread.......How can you tell if your cuticle is tight or wide? I used Motions Lavish last night after neutralizing poo.........

Try looking at your indivual strands. Usually, people with very tight thick cuticle have thick coarse strands. Also do a porosity test. Sistaslick has I think 2 ways to test in her porosity articles. If you clean strand float forever and a day, you might have low porosity. If it sinks quickly you could have very porous hair. Also what strength relaxer do you use. People that usually have to use super have a very tight cuticle.

 

[winterinatl]

****bump*****

Found it!

 

[Dposh167]

so i guess its better to use a shampoo with a higher PH to get the cuticles open when doing a color rinse! then the color will penetrate better. and then use a conditioner, or DC with a lower/normal ph range to close them back up! makes sense.. thanks

 

[Dposh167]

i think u can also tell ur hair's porosity by feeling a single strand. (i think it was in sistaclick's article or somewhere else i read)

from what i remember, take a single strand and with ur thumb & pointer, feel up and down the strand. If its smooth then the cuticles are intact. If the strand feels raggedy/bumpy (like little spikes) then ur cuticles are up. i don't know if everyone can feel their own cuticles. it may depend on the hair, but i know for me i can definitely feel when my cuticles are up therefore noting that my hair's porosity is off. i tried it on a couple of hairs right after a fresh relaxer. I could literally feel the little bumps on my strands.

i don't think this is a 100% way of finding out ur hairs porosity but if i don't do the water test then i use this method. it has really helped with last minute product decisions

 

[Artemis]

so i guess its better to use a shampoo with a higher PH to get the cuticles open when doing a color rinse! then the color will penetrate better. and then use a conditioner, or DC with a lower/normal ph range to close them back up! makes sense.. thanks

I'm quoting you for emphasis because of the bolded, but I am reading other posts that have me a little confused here...

I think there is a misunderstanding. A pH balanced shampoo has no problems opening up the cuticle to allow moisture into the strands. If you do not have a porosity issue, a higher pH shampoo is not something you want to deal with b/c it creates a breeding ground for bacteria, which presents as an itchy scalp, dandruff, among other things. Also, if you have a balanced scalp and hair, the higher pH shampoo allows the hair's natural moisture content to evaporate. This creates a vicious cycle because you end up depending on the product. You know, like people who are addicted to Carmex

I just want to clarify because the goal is to get and maintain a healthy environment for the scalp and hair. If you have hair that is non-porous (which is I doubt is the case for most of us!!) to the point were you are having dry hair issues because of it, then give it a shot for just a couple of washes and see if the hair's ability to absorb water is corrected. IMO, 8 times out of 10, if someone says they have dry hair issues, it is because the opposite thing is happening (ie, they have porous hair) This is not something to just do on a regular basis.

Edited to add:
In regards to the color rinse, I do not believe that is a good idea because if you use a shampoo with a higher pH and your hair is normal and is not on either porosity extreme, it logically follows that even if you use a pH balanced conditioner afterwards, you may not necessarily get back to the baseline pH that makes your hair happy, just because of rinsing with water, etc. If the cuticles are open too wide that can cause damage to the strand itself AND at best the color may bleed because the cuticles weren't closed properly.

 

[Dposh167]

I'm quoting you for emphasis because of the bolded, but I am reading other posts that have me a little confused here...


Edited to add:
In regards to the color rinse, I do not believe that is a good idea because if you use a shampoo with a higher pH and your hair is normal and is not on either porosity extreme, it logically follows that even if you use a pH balanced conditioner afterwards, you may not necessarily get back to the baseline pH that makes your hair happy, just because of rinsing with water, etc. If the cuticles are open too wide that can cause damage to the strand itself AND at best the color may bleed because the cuticles weren't closed properly.

okay..so if my hair has no porosity issues right now...then i should keep using ph-balanced shampoos and conditioners right? but i should still keep a look out for higher ph products so that it doesn't disrupt my already normal porosity?

so when using a rinse, and to make sure the color doesn't bleed by cuticles not closing properly, I should still use a conditioner with a ph-balanced range right!? which conditioners/dc have a good ph range? i use rinses all the time. sometimes they stick good sometimes they don't. I use heat everytime, but i'm still trying to analyze why it works well this day and not that day? any clues?

 

[Sistaslick]

Please come back. I was hoping you could help me clarify and sort through some of my thoughts.

Oh yeah, with this issue, I also think they kinda do it on purpose to make convince you that you need to use their whole line since the rest of the products should bring the pH back down. Either way, I can't buy stuff like that. My scalp would pack up and leave My hair has gotten a taste for Kenra and Jocio, there is no going back now

To me, its not much of a pH issue as it is an ingredient compatability issue for staying within the line. The pHs of most of these daily products does not vary all that much. You'll always have shampoos being more basic/alkaline than conditioners no matter where you go. But make sure you stay on them for those formula pHs. Some of those people do NOT like giving out information to us unlicensed folk. I had to get ugly with Avlon 'nem and they gave me the number to someone at corporate! Don't let them run you off, b/c they will try it. Like it's classified or something!

I was just going to say on the main difference between coarse hair and fine hair shampoos is not one of pH, but just a general formula difference ingredient wise. Coarser shampoos tend to have more oils and emollients for softenting the cuticle, where fine hair shampoos tend to focus on reinforcing the cuticles w/ light proteins (volumizing).

All shampoos are slightly more basic than conditioners just by nature, but most of the cuticle lifting we're talking about here is going to come from the water being introduced to the hair, not from the pH of the shampoo product. Most of our shampoos you'll find will be in the normalizing range, and there really isn't much variation in pH across daily shampoo formulas- unless you're dealing with a specific type of 'treatment' shampoo.

Shampoos are surface acting products, and they use anionic surfactants to lift debris from the cuticle scales/surface. They may contain ingredients that deposit along the cuticle, but they really don't assist in lifting/loosening cuticles. Their job is to simply bind to and remove water insoluable substances from the outer layers of hair. Water is somehting that most hair, even the most non porous hair can incorporate into the cortex. Everything else is surface acting (working on the outer cuticle layers). That's why most treatements have to be repeated over and over. Coarser hair can take the deposition of heavy material on the cuticle much easier than fine hair- which feels limp and dry if it's overloaded with product. If a coarser haired person were to use products formulated for fine hair, they wouldn't feel anything b/c those products don't have the "deposition" power that creamier, oiler coarse formulas tend to have. It's not that pH is "letting more things in." Also, since 70% of us are relaxed in the first place, we're already deep in the porous range just by that fact alone. Most of our products are formulated to flatten and repair cuticle, not lift it.

They do assume all of our hair is coarser and compared to the formulas made for Becky and Kimmy, it is. Their remedy for this, and our porosity, is not to increase the pH of our poos, but to add more oils/emollients (but mostly oils) to our "moisturizing" formulas. One size fits all. KeraCare is a perfect example of this trend. For those of us with fine hair, that combo of oils and heavy emollients leaves us feeling parched, while our thicker stranded comrades feel conditioned and nourished.

If you notice, in product lines that are generally meant for Caucasian folk, we usually are instructed to choose the formula for "color treated/damaged hair." This is because the pH of these "color safe" lines is even lower and contain the deposition material we need for our pliability. I know these ramblings are probably all over the place, but I said all of that to say I do think that the role of pH in those formulas is not as important as the formula make up. You'll find that the pH varies very little, and errs on the lower (normalizing) side generally.

 

[Sistaslick]

okay..so if my hair has no porosity issues right now...then i should keep using ph-balanced shampoos and conditioners right? but i should still keep a look out for higher ph products so that it doesn't disrupt my already normal porosity?

so when using a rinse, and to make sure the color doesn't bleed by cuticles not closing properly, I should still use a conditioner with a ph-balanced range right!? which conditioners/dc have a good ph range? i use rinses all the time. sometimes they stick good sometimes they don't. I use heat everytime, but i'm still trying to analyze why it works well this day and not that day? any clues?

99.99999% of your conditioners are going to be pH balanced or normalizing. You really cannot go wrong! (Kenra, Kenra, Kenra, Kenra) Conditioners are made up of cationic surfactants which'll assist in cuticle closing. They are naturally acidic. Make sure that you're following your rinses with a cold water rinse in the end for several minutes. This will help with the mechanical closing of your cuticle. Generally, you are going to want to wash your color treated hair in luke warm water, as hot water will cause your color to leech. After you apply your heat to your rinse, make sure that you let your hair cool down before you rinse it too. That'll keep you from rinsing half your color down the drain.

 

[LaPaciencia]

99.99999% of your conditioners are going to be pH balanced or normalizing. You really cannot go wrong! (Kenra, Kenra, Kenra, Kenra) Conditioners are made up of cationic surfactants which'll assist in cuticle closing. They are naturally acidic. Make sure that you're following your rinses with a cold water rinse in the end for several minutes. This will help with the mechanical closing of your cuticle. Generally, you are going to want to wash your color treated hair in luke warm water, as hot water will cause your color to leech. After you apply your heat to your rinse, make sure that you let your hair cool down before you rinse it too. That'll keep you from rinsing half your color down the drain.

Great thread ladies and !!! I remember back in the day my mom used to rinse my hair in cool water for the final rinse and I loved it and my hair shined! But now that I shower with water set on "HELL HOT" (bad habit in the winter) I've got to get myself back accustomed to the cool water, brrrrr!!!

 

[Dposh167]

99.99999% of your conditioners are going to be pH balanced or normalizing. You really cannot go wrong! (Kenra, Kenra, Kenra, Kenra) Conditioners are made up of cationic surfactants which'll assist in cuticle closing. They are naturally acidic. Make sure that you're following your rinses with a cold water rinse in the end for several minutes. This will help with the mechanical closing of your cuticle. Generally, you are going to want to wash your color treated hair in luke warm water, as hot water will cause your color to leech. After you apply your heat to your rinse, make sure that you let your hair cool down before you rinse it too. That'll keep you from rinsing half your color down the drain.

ahhhhhhh...i never do this either. I always immediately rinse out after i use heat on it....very interesting!

 

[Moroni]

Gym, I know you're on other people's hair blogs, but you need your own! Great info!

Cosigning on this! In fact, I was wishing I could have read this years ago, and I am extremely grateful to read it now! Thanks, Gym!

 

[Sistaslick]

ahhhhhhh...i never do this either. I always immediately rinse out after i use heat on it....very interesting!

Yeah! The point of heat is to force open those layers so that they can trap your color easier. Rinses are the biggest problem since they are specifically formulated to be "shaft coaters"- that's why they can be done regularly without much damage. So no matter how much heat you use, color will still rinse down the drain.

In rinses, the color molecules are too large to penetrate to the cortex which is why they are not permanent like the smaller dye molecules you'll get in regular permanent colors. They are meant to chill on the outer surface of the cuticle. Permanent dye molecules are small but once they make it to the cortex, they expand. Then they're trapped, permanently.

With rinses, you lose color with every wash-- but interestingly enough, more porous (fine) hair takes rinses easier initially b/c the color is able to get to the innermost cuticle layers since the outer ones don't put up much of a fight. But as with most porous things, what easily makes its way in, easily makes its way back on out. You want to give your hair a chance to naturally trap the color- by cooling first, then rinsing in more cold water. Subsequent washings will still need to be in lukewarm water to preserve vibrancy, and initially you don't want to be washing your hair really frequently. Water is neutral, but it is also more alkaline than hair naturally is. It also swells the shaft and disturbs cuticle orientation, so after a fresh color you want to give your hair a chance to just kinda "sit." Daily washing or 3-4 times per week in that first 2 weeks will send more color down the drain than you want.

If you stick with most color safe products, you'll be operating in the best pH range to preserve your color. But, like I said before though, the pH is really not as important as the ingredients in the formula since the pH of daily products does not really vary all that dramatically from product to product. Most are gonna be pH balanced anyway. With your rinse, you are mainly going to want to stay away from shampoos with harsh sulfates b/c those will pull color from your hair and make the color look dull.