Pricing by hair type?

[Supergirl]

I completely agree. To be honest thats one of the first things I noticed.


But like I said maybe its just the writer/editor in me. Others may not be as picky. LOL

No we are...

I took issue with this

Please have available currency breakdown for payment, i.e single bills ect.

and this:

*
Consultations are FREE but if you are a no show or cancell your FREE consult, they will be a $25 fee for the consultation. Appointments are not made without a consult.

 

[ms-gg]

I don't follow your definitions, but all of that is debatable. My questions to you are....

...is it okay that "natural" salons cater almost exclusively to blacks, period? Is it okay that I can't go there and get my relaxed hair done?

Should black natural hair salons be accused of discrimination if they turn away a white woman with type 1 hair who wants kinky twists? What about them selling t-shirts in the salon that only have pictures of black women? What about natural product companies that market exclusively to black women? Are they discriminating against non-blacks?


IMO, this is just another case of something being way overblown by LHCF. I can't imagine how many prank calls that woman received today.

Once again, the problem with this salon is that they have blatantly admitted that they discriminate based on the racial background of the client. They specifically stated in their prices that if you are half black (biracial) you get charged a cheaper price.

 

[ms-gg]

And on another level, their nappy hair tax keeps those same old tired stereotypes of afro textured/nappy/kinky hair alive. You know, nappy hair is hard to work with, unmanageable, and it is more difficult than hair that has a "looser texture."

SMH at all of this.

 

[aquajoyice]

I can barely understand the writing on the website. Why would they replace the I in twisted with a Y? Was that really necessary?

 

[EllePixie]

And on another level, their nappy hair tax keeps those same old tired stereotypes of afro textured/nappy/kinky hair alive. You know, nappy hair is hard to work with, unmanageable, and it is more difficult than hair that has a "looser texture."

SMH at all of this.

You hit the nail on the head - it's not even that they are charging more for hair that is more work, it's that they are assuming a "natural" texture is more work than a "biracial" texture. What if you had someone with NL natural hair, then another with WL biracial hair? Which is more work? According to their pricing, the "nappy" hair would still cost more. Told y'all, good hair is alive and well...

 

[ManeStreet]

Hey check out this articale. Its about excatly what we've been discussing.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/archive/index.php/t-120026.html

 

[My Friend]

Hmmm...has the OP posted any other replies in this thread?

The other website attached to this site is Rapunzel, something or other, havent I seen that logo on this board before?

In my Keith Sweat voice..."Something..something just ain't right"

 

[ManeStreet]

excuse the typos, using my cell to post and I miss keys at times.

 

[EllePixie]

Wow. The comments are so ignorant I literally feel a little sick.

Negro women have coarse curly hair, but it's fashionable for them to wear it straight and dyed. Straightening hair is an extra process that requires additional time, tools and skills. It would be pretty bad if people with straight hair were charged for having their hair straightened :dubious:

Um in this case, the stylist would charge for the RELAXER or PRESS.

When I was relaxed I used to go to the salon every six months or so and they would charge me the price that they had online in the services section. Yes, my hair was THICK, but it was straight and they did my hair the SAME way they'd do a white woman's...shampoo, condition, blow dry, flat iron. Just because you need a different set of skills to cut the hair does not mean it is MORE WORK. They used the same scissors on the white women that they used on me, they just cut my hair dry (because of the different texture/length of relaxed hair when wet).

I have never been a "black" salon with relaxed hair (no longer go to stylists after my BC), so to act as if it's common and should be accepted to charge "black" hair more is utterly ridiculous. Or do they only mean the black customers with natural hair were charged more (which still would be ridiculous)? It would be interesting to see their visual representation of "black" hair, because to me, even if you have a relaxer you still have "black" hair.

 

[pisceschica]

Who else gets annoyed when people price things "& up"?

If you can't charge a flat rate for something, then it requires a consultation. And whenever I show up with my type 4 hair, the price for ME is suddenly "and up".

Hell, it doesnt matter what type your hair is, why does the price always jump when I sit in the chair?

Most salons post the basic price and either the stylist or the sign will inform you that your texture, difficulty of service, hair length etc will add to the price.

The bottom line is that more highly textured hair requires more work than straight or lazy wave/curl hair. I don't see anything wrong with the "& up" as long as they are straight up about the price before they provide you the service. I would rather you tell me ahead of time so I can make a decision to either not have the service or alter the service than to have the service completed and ay a away higher rice than I thought it was.

I don't see anything wrong as long as the person explains. Your texture takes more time or since your hair is longer we use more product and that is why we have to charge for long hair.

 

[BraunSugar]

Why would different textures cost different amounts? If you can braid hair, then you can braid hair. If non biracial hair is a hangup, then they need to up their skill set. Not to mention they look a clown with the effed up grammar and just being ignorant in general.

Sent from my T-Mobile myTouch 3G using Long Hair Care Forum App

 

[Solitude]

I think you may be missing the point. "True" legal discrimination is very clearly spelled out by local, state and federal laws. It is not subject to any definition that you or I may want to assign to it.

In the 1st example you provided, the natural salon is free to provide any service it would like AS LONG AS it does not discriminate against a customer based on their membership in a "protected class". Federal protected classes include race, color, sex, religion, disability, familial status and national origin (cities and states may or may not have additional protections). If the salon decides not to provide you with a service because you have a relaxer, they are not violating federal law because having a relaxer is NOT a protected class, and is therefore not protected by law . You may feel wronged by the policy, but the law says you're SOL.

Additionally, the salon cannot help who most of their customers are; however, if they have a formal or informal policy of refusing service to non-blacks, then they are violating they law.

Back to the point....I am constantly amazed at how quickly some of us will sweep discrimination under the rug, just because it may be coming from parties who look like us. Right is right, and wrong is wrong, and this ish right here?? Is dead wrong. Simple.

Once again, the problem with this salon is that they have blatantly admitted that they discriminate based on the racial background of the client. They specifically stated in their prices that if you are half black (biracial) you get charged a cheaper price.

@bride91501 & @ms-gg

I honestly find your wikipedia/googled definitions of discrimination laughable. I'm a third year law student who is only a few months away from being a licensed attorney. If you are more experienced in discrimination law, then please forgive me and please point to some case law that supports your conclusions.

Discrimination is not that simple. First of all, only certain business are liable under the Civil Rights Act. A salon is only liable if it is considered a "place of public accommodation." Determining what place is or is not a place of public accommodation is not simple. I have done months of research on the topic of public accommodations, and individual circuits around the country are divided on whether or not a salon is or is not a place of public accommodation.

I searched for related cases on LexisNexis, and I found Denny v. Elizabeth Arden Salons out of the Fourth Circuit, a 19-page decision about a case where the plaintiffs accused the hair salon of race-based discrimination. There was also a long dissenting opinion. All of my quotes are from the majority opinion (the one that decided the case on appeal):

Whether an entity qualifies as a "place of public accommodation" can be a fact-intensive inquiry, because establishments "differ markedly in their operations." Nesmith v. YMCA of Raleigh, N.C., 397 F.2d 96, 98 (4th Cir. 1968).

I did actual LEGAL research - i.e., case law and not simple definitions based on google searches, into this issue based on this thread.

In order to prove a discrimination case, certain legal elements have to be met. What does that mean? It means a murder is not a murder unless the elements are met. That's why you can stab somebody and be acquitted. There are no "simple" definitions in the law. Concepts are defined not just by statute, but by case law.

A salon is also not covered as a "place of entertainment" either.

The plain text of the statute demonstrates that beauty salons are not covered by Title II. They are not mentioned in any of the numerous definitions of "place of public accommodation." They also bear little relation to those places of entertainment that are specifically listed, which strongly suggests [**9] that a salon would not fall within the catchall language "other place of exhibition or entertainment." 42 U.S.C. � 2000a(b)(3). As the Supreme Court has indicated, "the statutory language 'place of entertainment' should be given full effect according to its generally accepted meaning."

Plaintiffs -- and the dissent -- have not directed us to even a single case in which a court has found that Title II covered a salon like the instant one.

In Denny v. Elizabeth Arden Salons, the plaintiffs won on a contracts basis under Section 1981, not because salons are liable under Title II of the Civil Rights Act. That provision gives blacks the freedom to contract, presumably in the same manner as whites. To prove this claim, one has to also show that the salon had a discriminatory intent. It's not clear that biracial v. any other texture actually shows discriminatory intent.

All persons within the jurisdiction of the United States shall have the same right in every State and Territory to make and enforce contracts, to sue, be parties, give evidence, and to the full and equal benefit of all laws and proceedings for the security of persons and property as is enjoyed by white citizens, and shall be subject to the like punishment, pains, penalties, taxes, licenses, and exactions of every kind, and to no other.

I repeat, nobody on LHCF has contracted with the business, so none of us has a claim. That is why I said I can't believe people are in an uproar about a salon they have no plans to patronize. The salon is not liable under the Civil Rights Act unless the courts in that jurisdiction consider the salon to be a place of public accommodation. In addition, courts typically find discrimination in cases where services was refused.

We do not have before us, however, the question of whether Denny did or did not receive hair styling to her liking, but whether for reasons of race she was denied hair styling altogether or in any meaningful sense

Notice that the court said - denied services altogether. Not a different price structure.

Seandria Denny, the purchaser, wanted to buy her mother a gift and was refused that opportunity on race-based grounds. If the salon refused to contract with Seandria Denny because of her mother's race, that is all that � 1981 requires.

Lastly, even if sued, the salon could simply provide an equitable remedy, i.e., changing the salon menu from saying biracial to "wavy/looser curl," which is, in essence, what the salon owner is trying to communicate.

To make a last point in this very loooong post, most of what you all are posting about the Civil Rights Act is completely inapplicable because salons are not likely covered under the Act. Contracts may be, but salons are not. I'm not saying that all of my conclusions are correct, but I'm just quoting one case that I found that goes to show that the issue of discrimination is not simple.

While Title II clearly excludes this salon from coverage, section 1981 just as clearly governs racial animus in the making and enforcement of contracts.

Just because you get a bunch of "thanks" on your post does not mean that you actually know what you're talking about.

 

[davisbr88]

Just because you get a bunch of "thanks" on your post does not mean that you actually know what you're talking about.

Well damn.

 

[glamazon386]

Wow. The comments are so ignorant I literally feel a little sick.



Um in this case, the stylist would charge for the RELAXER or PRESS.

When I was relaxed I used to go to the salon every six months or so and they would charge me the price that they had online in the services section. Yes, my hair was THICK, but it was straight and they did my hair the SAME way they'd do a white woman's...shampoo, condition, blow dry, flat iron. Just because you need a different set of skills to cut the hair does not mean it is MORE WORK. They used the same scissors on the white women that they used on me, they just cut my hair dry (because of the different texture/length of relaxed hair when wet).

I have never been a "black" salon with relaxed hair (no longer go to stylists after my BC), so to act as if it's common and should be accepted to charge "black" hair more is utterly ridiculous. Or do they only mean the black customers with natural hair were charged more (which still would be ridiculous)? It would be interesting to see their visual representation of "black" hair, because to me, even if you have a relaxer you still have "black" hair.

I've seen it before. The Dominican salons here charge double the price for a wash and set for natural hair. It goes from $25 to $50. I've seen it in more than one shop and in more than one part of town. And they usually don't even roller set the naturals. They wash, blow dry and then flat iron. I tried to get them to roll my hair but the woman couldn't do it. She tried but she clearly didn't know what she was doing. That was the first and last time I went to a Dominican Salon as a natural.

 

[ms-gg]

I repeat, nobody on LHCF has contracted with the business, so none of us has a claim. That is why I said I can't believe people are in an uproar about a salon they have no plans to patronize.

Glad I was able to make you laugh
I have a very basic, very basic understanding of the law from taking a few law classes in college. Obviously I am not a lawyer or have that much experience with the law as extensively as you do from being a law student. I understand how rulings are decided from studying cases in classes as well. I understand that many judges base and use prior rulings in order to decide a court case. I understand all of that. Beyond that I have no knowledge. The only thing I remembered that seemed to fit this situation was the Civil Rights Act and that specific Title that I learned in a few classes that outlawed discriminatory practices.

Even if no one actually went to this salon, we still have a right to be mad at the differences in prices that they have. I didn't experience Jim Crow, lynchings, and slavery but I'm mad at that too. I don't think anyone was planning a march on the salon or anything else, we were having a discussion based on the OP. At the end of the day, no matter what the "law" states (laws can be changed), what that particular salon is doing is disturbing in my eyes and I think it is wrong.

How anyone else can see that this is okay is beyond me.

 

[EllePixie]

I've seen it before. The Dominican salons here charge double the price for a wash and set for natural hair. It goes from $25 to $50.

I think perhaps we are getting in the weeds a little but this I can actually see, since it is significantly more work to straighten hair that isn't already straight. Also, on the site in question they are charging different amounts for two different kinds of hair yet both are textured...ya know? That's why I'm wondering if the Dilliards people were charging more for natural hair, or just black hair...

 

[glamazon386]

I think perhaps we are getting in the weeds a little but this I can actually see, since it is significantly more work to straighten hair that isn't already straight. Also, on the site in question they are charging different amounts for two different kinds of hair yet both are textured...ya know? That's why I'm wondering if the Dilliards people were charging more for natural hair, or just black hair...

But they quote that price before even touching your head. They have a sign on the wall that says it. I don't see the difference. My hair blows straight pretty easy. It also can be roller set pretty easy. They didn't know that and clearly didn't care to find out. I've seen other naturals on this board who have a texture similar to mine who get roller sets and pay the regular price. SunshineOne has a picture in her siggy.

It's not like they did a consultation on my head and then quoted me that price. Why I gotta pay double? Not even extra but DOUBLE. I can understand charging more if the person has long hair or thick hair but to lump anybody with visible texture in their hair in one category isn't right. They hadn't even touched my head. They had no idea what it would do once washed. I didn't even have that much hair as this was 3 or 4 years ago. IMO, they're discriminating too. I never got charged more to have my hair done at a black shop. Not even when I was 6 months post relaxer.

My regular stylist is at a white salon and I pay the same price for a blowout at his shop as his white customers. My appointment only takes an hour too. Same thing when I go to the spa near my house. There's a girl there who is natural and does my trims for me. I pay the same price as anybody else or any other hair texture for a blowout.

 

[HappilyLiberal]

I don't trust any company that uses the term "d'tangled."

I question the professionalism of any company that allows the error "wave" instead of "waive" to make it onto their website!

 

[EllePixie]

But they quote that price before even touching your head. They have a sign on the wall that says it. I don't see the difference. My hair blows straight pretty easy. It also can be roller set pretty easy. They didn't know that and clearly didn't care to find out. I've seen other naturals on this board who have a texture similar to mine who get roller sets and pay the regular price. SunshineOne has a picture in her siggy.

It's not like they did a consultation on my head and then quoted me that price. They hadn't even touched my head. Why I gotta pay double? I didn't even have that much hair as this was 3 or 4 years ago. My regular stylist is at a white salon and I pay the same price for a blowout at his shop as his white customers. My appointment only takes an hour too.

Oooh, I'm sorry, I thought we were talking about white salons now? I'm confused. I was saying that I don't know why ppl in the Dillards thread was acting like it's so common, b/c clearly white salons don't do it all the time. But you definitely have a point...I know that MY hair doesn't blow dry straight, but you're right, it's different for everyone. I'll be totally honest and say that I have never been to a "black" salon except for once for a trim on my frohawk and then my BC....but a roller set or flat iron was definitely less work on my relaxed hair....but you're right, it varies. Well shoot, that's funky too!

 

[glamazon386]

Oooh, I'm sorry, I thought we were talking about white salons now? I'm confused. I was saying that I don't know why ppl in the Dillards thread was acting like it's so common, b/c clearly white salons don't do it all the time. But you definitely have a point...I know that MY hair doesn't blow dry straight, but you're right, it's different for everyone. I'll be totally honest and say that I have never been to a "black" salon except for once for a trim on my frohawk and then my BC....but a roller set or flat iron was definitely less work on my relaxed hair....but you're right, it varies. Well shoot, that's funky too!

Sorry for the confusion. IDK about the Dillard's thread. I was just commenting that shops do charge more for "natural" hair much like what this shop in OP does. Whatever they deem "natural" to be gets charged more. Or in some instances just "black" hair in general. My post was specifically about Dominican Salons I have visited but it is a common practice. I've had it happen to me before.

How about the time I called the braid shop and asked for prices for micros and then when I told the lady my hair was natural she said she doesn't do natural hair? This was an African braid shop. I ended up going to another African woman who did my hair a few times before and she said a lot of times they don't like dealing with people who have natural hair bc they come in with a tangled mess and then complain when you try to comb through it. They'd rather not deal with it.

 

[EllePixie]

Sorry for the confusion. IDK about the Dillard's thread. I was just commenting that shops do charge more for "natural" hair much like what this shop in OP does. Whatever they deem "natural" to be gets charged more. My post was specifically about Dominican Salons I have visited but it is a common practice. I've had it happen to me before.

Okay - we're back on the same page, lol. But the issue for the salon in the OP is that they are charging a different price, but both heads of hair are natural! Did your Dominican salon charge more for "nappy" hair vs curly hair?

 

[glamazon386]

Okay - we're back on the same page, lol. But the issue for the salon in the OP is that they are charging a different price, but both heads of hair are natural! Did your Dominican salon charge more for "nappy" hair vs curly hair?

They didn't come out and say it but that's definitely what was happening. If your hair could be rolled (meaning a those with a looser curl or relaxer), you paid $25. If not, (meaning us tighter, kinky curls) you got blow dried and flat ironed and paid $50.

The girl towel dried my hair and then attempted to rollerset it. How the heck is my hair gonna stick to a roller if youve sucked all the water out? It was just a halo of frizz. It would have rolled once she combed the setting lotion through the section and rolled it. She tried one roller and gave up. Yet I went to a natural saon and they flexi rodded my hair with no problem with setting lotion (the foam kind). It came out smooth and looked just like it did on my relaxed hair. I know it could be done. She probably was just trying to get the $50.

And like I said this wasn't the only salon in the area I've seen do this. When I was relaxed I used to go to Domincan Salons often and I saw them do this on more than one occasion. I used to travel all the way across town and tried out a few different ones becfause they didn't have them in my area yet. And many of them have a sign on the wall when you walk in that says Natural Hair - $50. I used to pay $22 for a wash and set when I was relaxed and stretching my relaxers. They always told me "Mami you need perm" but they never charged me extra. Even with 6 months of new growth. I had my last relaxer done at a Dominican Salon 5 years ago with 6 months of new growth. I only paid $45 like everybody else then too.

 

[EllePixie]

They didn't come out and say it but that's definitely what was happening. If your hair could be rolled, you paid $25. If not, you got blow dried and flat ironed and paid $50.

The girl towel dried my hair and then attempted to rollerset it. How the heck is my hair gonna stick to a roller if youve sucked all the water out? It was just a halo of frizz. It would have rolled once she combed the setting lotion through the section and rolled it. She tried one roller and gave up. Yet I went to a natural saon and they flexi rodded my hair with no problem with setting lotion (the foam kind). It came out smooth and looked just like it did on my relaxed hair. I know it could be done. She probably was just trying to get the $50.

You are throwing out all kinds of shadiness over here! Smh. I can see if they charged different prices for two different services (at a lot of the salons I went to a blow dry/flat iron was $50), but to "try" one then go to the more expensive service is bonk.

 

[glamazon386]

You are throwing out all kinds of shadiness over here! Smh. I can see if they charged different prices for two different services (at a lot of the salons I went to a blow dry/flat iron was $50), but to "try" one then go to the more expensive service is bonk.

Right. They were just wrong. And like I said my hair wasn't even long back then. When I went and let them blow my hair out I had been natural for about a year. I had just gotten my hair highlighted and trimmed a month before. It was about maybe chin/neck length then. It's not like there was a massive amount of hair they had to get through. My hair isn't particularly tangly. I wonder what price they would quote me now.

 

[PearlyCurly]

Well damn.

I can always come on here and laugh!

 

[EllePixie]

Right. They were just wrong. And like I said my hair wasn't even long back then. When I went and let them blow my hair out I had been natural for about a year. I had just gotten my hair highlighted and trimmed a month before. It was about maybe chin/neck length then. It's not like there was a massive amount of hair they had to get through. My hair isn't particularly tangly. I wonder what price they would quote me now.

This is why this salon is perplexing me...what would they charge for a waist length curly headed person vs. a nape length "nappy" headed person...shooo, if I could get some twists put in for $25 at WL lemme go get some "texture softener" in 5 years...

 

[bride91501]

@bride91501 & @ms-gg

I honestly find your wikipedia/googled definitions of discrimination laughable. [\QUOTE]

You think the information included in my post came from Google & Wikipedia? LOL. The first thing you should have learned as 1st year student is not to confuse assumptions with facts. The info came from YEARS of experience fighting exactly the type of discrimination and ignorance this salon is helping to spread.

I guess we all know what side of the courtroom you'll be on in a few months . Congrats on your upcoming graduation.

 

[glamazon386]

This is why this salon is perplexing me...what would they charge for a waist length curly headed person vs. a nape length "nappy" headed person...shooo, if I could get some twists put in for $25 at WL lemme go get some "texture softener" in 5 years...

For some reason I think the WL person would get charged more just bc their hair is longer. Most salons do charge more for longer hair. But then again for all we know it might be the same price as the "nappy" person because nappy hair is just so hard to deal with. If they're going to be a natural salon they need to stop that crap. Don't most "naturals" have kinky curly hair? I mean is that not what a natural hair salon is supposed to cater to? How are you gonna charge them extra? Wth?!!?

 

[Bubblingbrownshuga]

'If extra d' tangling services has to be performed you will be charged'

No ma'ammy.

 

[Bubblingbrownshuga]

Ummm, is it me, or do you all believe this salon isn't black owned?