What do you think of predestination?

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This is going to be a long thread so I hope you all will endure and read it anyways whenver you have time.

Have you ever wondered how we can really be making and choosing of our own free will if God already has everything mapped out and knows what we will do before we do it? Have you ever wondered if a person is predestined to go to heaven or to go to hell? Does that make you wonder if you really have a choice in the matter?

Of course, the Bible says he gives us our own free will so I personally believe it is so. But, I know the concept of predestination is an arguable one and I'm interested to hear points of view on the issue.

Part I

Let’s begin with some general definitions:

Determinism: The view that every event has a cause and that everything in the universe is absolutely dependent on and governed by causal laws. Since determinists believe that all events, including human actions, are predetermined, determinism is typically thought to be incompatible with free will.

Fatalism: The belief that "what will be will be," since all past, present, and future events have already been predetermined by God or another all-powerful force. In religion, this view may be called predestination; it holds that whether our souls go to heaven or hell is determined before we are born and is independent of our good deeds.

Free will: The theory that human beings have freedom of choice or self-determination; that is, given a situation, a person could have done other than what he did. Philosophers have argued that free will is incompatible with determinism.

Indeterminism: The view that there are events that do not have any cause; many proponents of free will believe that acts of choice are capable of not being determined by any physiological or psychological cause.

Theological fatalism is an attempt to demonstrate a logical contradiction between an omniscient God and free will, where free will is defined as the ability to choose between alternatives. In this it is similar in purpose to the conundrum, "Can an omnipotent God make a rock so heavy that even he is not able to lift it?"

Theological fatalism’s premises are stated as follows: God is omniscient. Since God is omniscient, God has infallible foreknowledge. If God has infallible foreknowledge that tomorrow you will engage in an event (mow the lawn), then you must invariably engage in that event (mowing the lawn).

Therefore, free-will is not possible since you have no alternative except to engage in the event (mow the lawn). In the event that you do not fulfill event, then God is not omniscient. Alternatively, if you engage in event, then you don't have free will on account of the inability to choose another alternative.

An opposing argument can state: God is omniscient. Since God is omniscient, he is also infallible. If God has infallible foreknowledge that tomorrow you will engage in event, then you will freely choose this based on your free will, not obligation or lack of choice about the event. You still have free will to engage in event; God merely knows your choice before you make it. You are not obliged to make choice 'A' (mowing the lawn) anymore than choice 'B' (playing tennis). If you were going to change your mind, God would have seen that also, so you still have full free will in all matters. Also, you will still make the same choices (with free will), even if God chose to not see the future. Seeing the future or not does not alter your free will.

With passive foreknowledge, if it were kept hidden, it would not invalidate free will in any logical or rational way. The individual choosing event A, would be making the exact same choices regardless of whether God knew the choices beforehand. God knowing or not knowing the future (passively) would not alter the free will of individuals at all. The demise of free will would only logically come if God made His knowledge public in regard to the free will choice of individuals; this would alter future free will and make it an obligation. One simple illustration could be a psychic person foreseeing someone the other side of the world tripping and breaking their leg when they run to catch a bus. The psychic would not be altering reality be foreseeing this event, as this event would still happen regardless of whether someone has seen it or not, the same application can be applied to God's omniscience, as long as it is passive, and not interfering with reality or another's knowledge of it; then it is not contravening the free will of humans.

However, if it is to be understood that God created all that is created, the principle asserts that this poses a problem for any passive knowledge on God's part. An understanding of omniscience must be joined with an understanding of God's omnipresence in time. If God knows all events—past, future, and present—then He would know all events and decisions an individual would make though from the individual’s perspective those events and decisions have not yet occurred. This can be viewed, at least implicitly, as a nullification of any concept of free will for any individual though no mechanism for God's apparent foreknowledge restraining the freedom to act of the individual is posited by the principle of theological fatalism. Since, according the Christian theology, God is atemporal (existing outside of time) God knows from creation the entire course of one's life, all the actions in which he will partake, and even whether or not that individual will accept his divine authority. With these preconditions, only a starkly fatalist theological position seems imaginable to some.

To go one step further, here are some other Implications: There is a vast difference between Predestination, Fatalism and Chance (or Fortune).

Fatalists teach that there is a blind, impersonal force, back of which there is no Divine purpose or any other, and over which none has control—not even God—and that things happen in this world and are swept along by this blind power. This is Fatalism.

Chance (or Fortune) means that things "happen" luckily, that things are not controlled and directed by God. According to chance, God can foresee what will happen, but that is all. Everything is mere luck. And if the advocate of Chance is asked why or how things come to pass, he has no reply except to say that "it just happened."

Predestination, the doctrine of the Bible, is that God has a purpose and He is working all things out according to His Own will and purpose (Ephesians 1:11, Daniel 4:35, Isaiah 14:24 and 46:10).

Predestination teaches that God does nothing nor does H permit anything except that which serves to carry out His purpose (Psalms 33:11). This means that GOD IS the SOVEREIGN of the World, the One who does all things as He wills.

Those who blankly say or believe "what is to be, will be" are as wrong as the advocates of chance. It is true that events are certain, but only so because of the sovereign God who fulfills His own decrees. Actually, those who believe "what is to be, will be" without considering God, are as difficult to convince of the Bible doctrine of predestination as those who believe in chance or fortune.

The serious student of the Bible does not believe that things “just happen." They understand that a wise, holy, good and sovereign God has the control and guiding hand in every detail of life (Matthew 10:29-30). The only man who does not really want God to have this control, or the man who despises the truth that God does have the control, is the person who does not love God and does not want God in his life. He wants his own will and way. He wants God on one side and he wants to be on the other. He, like the devils of old, would say, "Leave us alone." But not so; God is sovereign and He cannot deny Himself.

 

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Part II

Predestination:

Romans 8:29-30 tells us, “For those God foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified.” Ephesians 1:5 and 11 declare, “He predestined us to be adopted as His sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with His pleasure and will…In Him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of Him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of His will.” Many people have a strong hostility to the doctrine of predestination. However, predestination is a Biblical doctrine. The key is understanding what predestination means, Biblically.

The words translated “predestined” in the Scriptures referenced above are from the Greek word “proorizo,” which carries the meaning of “determine beforehand,” “ordain,” “to decide upon ahead of time.” So, predestination is God determining certain things to occur ahead of time. What did God determine ahead of time? According to Romans 8:29-30, God predetermined that certain individuals would be conformed to the likeness of His Son, be called, justified, and glorified. Essentially, God predetermines that certain individuals will be saved. Numerous Scriptures refer to believers in Christ being chosen (Matthew 24:22, 31; Mark 13:20, 27; Romans 8:33; 9:11; 11:5-7,28; Ephesians 1:11; Colossians 3:12; 1 Thessalonians 1:4; 1 Timothy 5:21; 2 Timothy 2:10; Titus 1:1; 1 Peter 1:1-2; 2:9; 2 Peter 1:10). Predestination is the Biblical doctrine that God in His sovereignty chooses certain individuals to be saved.

The most common objection to the doctrine of predestination is that it is unfair. Why would God chose certain individuals and not others? The important thing to remember is that no one deserves to be saved. We have all sinned (Romans 3:23) and are all worthy of eternal punishment (Romans 6:23). As a result, God would be perfectly just in allowing all of us to spend eternity in hell. However, God chooses to save some of us. He is not being unfair to those who are not chosen because they are receiving what they deserve. God choosing to be gracious to some is not unfair to the others. No one deserves anything from God – therefore no one can object if they do not receive anything from God. An illustration would be me handing out money to 5 people in a crowd of 20. Would the 15 people who did not receive money be upset? Probably so. Do they have a right to be upset? No they do not. Why? Because I did not owe anyone any money. I simply decided to be gracious to some.

If God is choosing who is saved, doesn’t that undermine our free will to chose and believe in Christ? The Bible says that we have the free will choice – all we have to do is believe in Jesus Christ and we will be saved (John 3:16; Romans 10:9-10). The Bible never describes God rejecting anyone who believes in Him or turning away anyone who was seeking Him (Deuteronomy 4:29). Somehow, in the mystery of God, predestination works hand in hand with a person being drawn by God (John 6:44) and believing unto salvation (Romans 1:16). God predestines who will be saved, and we must choose Christ in order to be saved. Both facts are equally true. Romans 11:33 proclaims, “Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable His judgments, and His paths beyond tracing out!”

 

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Part III

"Double predestination"

Double predestination is the belief that God creates some people whose purpose in existence is to be sent to hell. Is this concept biblical? Let us look at the question from the book of Romans, which has two predominant themes throughout. The first theme is the righteousness of God. It is the gospel message itself that reveals God's righteousness (Romans 1:16-17). It is the truth contained within gospel message that by faith declares a man righteous before God (Romans 4-5). It is central figure of the gospel message—Jesus Christ—that enables a man to be righteous (Romans 6-7). It is the gospel message that shows man the way to live in a righteous manner (Romans 12).

Another theme found in the book of Romans is that of wrath. God's wrath has been revealed—and is being revealed—against all sinful actions (Romans 1:18). Mankind knows about God, but rejects God in their thinking and in their actions (Romans 1:21-22). The wrath of God, therefore, is the giving over of man to live his life as he pleases (Romans 1:24, 26, 28), which apart from God leads to destruction (Romans 1:28-32). Man rejects the God of the universe and God, in turn, forsakes man. Only a personal intervention from God can alter the destructive path on which man finds himself while he hardens himself in sin.

Now we read Romans 9:22 and it says, "What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction?" Many people think that God in Romans 9:22 has made certain vessels for his wrath. But this is not the point of the verse. Reading above, mankind has already experienced God's wrath. Mankind has fitted himself for destruction. It is God who endures these vessels. Vessels who have prepared themselves for destruction because they would not leave their sin and turn to God.

Look at the next verse: Romans 9:23, "And he did so in order that he might make known the riches of his glory upon vessels of mercy, which he prepared beforehand for glory." Notice that God elects certain people beforehand for his glory. In other words, before the foundation of the world God chose certain people to be his children in order that he would be glorified (see Ephesians 1:4). It does not say that God chose people to damnation, or predestined people to wrath. The Bible never speaks about a double predestination where God elects or predestinates some to hell, others to heaven. Those who are under God's wrath are in that position because they have rejected God. Those that have the righteousness of God are in that position because God has chosen them to be His children.

 

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Discussions re: any of the above is sincerely appreciated.

 

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HELP! and BUMP!

Thanks

 

[Nice & Wavy]

This is the perfect answer right here in your post:

God predestines who will be saved, and we must choose Christ in order to be saved. Both facts are equally true. Romans 11:33 proclaims, “Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable His judgments, and His paths beyond tracing out!”

If God didn't give us freedom to choose and He didn't feel the need for it, then we don't really know what the outcome could/would have been without it...He is God and we can't comprehend His thoughts...they are too HUGE for us in our finite minds.

But, He has made a way and have shown us Himself through His Word and so as the Holy Spirit reveals the Will of the Father to us in this area, then we will know and understand it.

Those are my thoughts...HTH