Visualization and Christianity : What do you make of this?

[Omoge]

http://www.letusreason.org/NAM22.htm

Visualization

Visualization that is Christianized

This is the incubating process. One holds the image in their minds eye and uses faith as a force to make it come about. The concept is to have it birthed in the spiritual realm first and then it will come about in the natural. Then one is to speak what they see into existence. with this law of manifestation," thoughts held steadfastly in the mind are spoken aloud, or visualized will "manifest' in the physical world. Napoleon Hill was taught this law by spirits who called themselves Ascended Masters from a School of Wisdom located on the astral plane. Hill visualized 16 nine famous men from the past sitting around a table as his advisers and guess what, it worked. Leaders in the Faith movement are using this same law as well for speaking things into existence. The occult technique of visualization is also the key to inner healing. One visualizes a situation in the past they need to be reconciled, they visualize Jesus coming to them and solving the problem.

The New age teaches that if everyone on earth practiced this to change their reality the world would be a very different place. We would have a potentially several billion godlike creatures in the world all exercising their will competing for their own piece of reality. The force is in the hands of its wielder. Whoever exercises the most power wins. God loves us enough not to put this kind of power or ability in the hands of sinful man.

THESE OCCULT CONCEPTS ARE NOW PRACTICED IN THE CHURCH, Sanctified as Christian. We can now visualize, decree, and get direct communication of new knowledge from the Lord just as the Gnostics and new agers! Some go further and will speak the image that they want to become reality. It doesn't seem to bother some people that this is an ancient practice in the occult and other religions and commonly used by the New Age movement today.

Words and pictures are the containers of the force of faith. Even God used this ...

"God did not create the world out of nothing, He used the Force of His Faith. (K. Copeland Spirit, Soul and Body #01-0601, Tape #1)

"What you are saying is exactly what you are getting now. If you are living in poverty and lack and want, change what you are saying.... The powerful force of the spiritual world that creates the circumstances around us is controlled by the words of the mouth. (The Laws of Prosperity Kenneth Copeland, Kenneth Copeland Publications).

Mental imaging is a common practice in the occult. One holds an image in their mind and puts in the details like coloring in an outline. As they envision it each day, meditate on it becomes clearer and will come to pass. This technique is now used for healing traumas that are emotional, cancer and other diseases. One sees the cancer or disease being fought and conquered and essentially leaving.

While mentally rehearsing Scripture and using pictures in our mind for Biblical accounts can be useful, it is not the same as attempting to create spiritual reality, or to cause through any mind technique such as positive thinking. To change, alter, or create reality you are then entering the realm of sorcery.

There are ways to use our imagination in practical and normal ways like Artists and architects need to have a visual image first. Johanna Michaelsen, now a Christian, who was deeply involved in the occult and a personal assistant to a psychic surgeon, states in her' look, Like Lambs to the Slaughter "There are perfectly valid and legitimate uses of the imagination.... An artist 'sees' the finished painting or sculpture in his mind or an architect 'visualizes' the building he is working on.... When we recall past events in our lives, we do so with mental images. Storytellers and books use mental images to get a point across. I'm talking about is a technique of creating an image in your mind and using that (image as) an effort to create or control reality through mind-powers.

What the new age is teaching is that one holds an image in their mind and goes in to experience it or uses it to change their reality. This is spiritual manipulation for power and healing. The Bible calls this sorcery, divination and vain imaginations.

Many who promote inner healing teach or imply that the past is reconciled through visualizing Jesus in the "memories" MacNutt explains that "Jesus, as Lord of time, is able to do what we cannot . . . [we] ask Jesus to walk back with us into the past . . . it is the inner child of the past who is being healed .. . . " Macnutt healing Ava Maria press 1974 p.186)

Ruth Carter Stapleton, who, like most of the other leaders in the movement, learned her inner healing from Agnes Sanford, tells of a young woman who became involved in drugs and crime because of the "self-loathing" she felt at being "an illegitimate child." Ruth's solution was to take the young woman back in "a guided meditation" in which Christ was visualized as "present" during the act of fornication that caused her conception and making it "holy and pure, an act of God . . . ordained by her heavenly Father. "(Stapleton Experience pp.22-23 cited in Seduction of Christianity)

CTD...

 

[Omoge]

CTD: Visualization and Christianity : What do you make of this?

In the we are told by some to visualize Jesus as we pray. When those into imagery and visualization believe that the "Jesus" being imaged in their mind is not just a image, but the real Jesus, even going so far as to dialogue and touch Him, then they have opened the door to counterfeit "spirit guides.' You might think you're focusing, on Jesus. You might have a real spiritual experience. But, when you create Jesus in your mind, He is not the historic Jesus of the Bible. He is The Jesus of your imagination, and the Bible warns about "another Jesus.' And many through these techniques have testified that the Jesus they encountered was not the resurrected Christ, but another Jesus, a counterfeit, "an angel of light" impersonating the Jesus of the Bible. How can Jesus who is at the right hand of the father in heaven come down and make a personal appearance to each of us materially. If each of us visualize Jesus we would all probably have a different picture of what he looks like our minds. Which one has the right Jesus, the real one? None of us! We probably would make him into some image of the pictures we saw.

We are recommended by some, even Christians, that the human mind thinks in pictures, so when you pray think of the picture in your mind. While we do use pictures it is not the norm. What pictures come to your mind when you hear the words like truth, holiness, righteousness, faith or love? None; they describe qualities.

LSD and meditation are ways visualization can be experienced. This technique has come into the Christian church through prayer. We are told that we need to show God a picture of our prayer. Since God can communicate in visions we too can communicate by a picture instead of words. "Through visualization and dreaming you can incubate your future and hatch the results." (The Fourth Dimension p. 44)

"We've got to learn how... to visualize and dream the answer as being completed as we go to the Lord in prayer. We should always try to visualize the end result as we pray." "In that way, with the power of the Holy Spirit, we can incubate that which we want God to do for us...." "God used this process of visualizing the situation to help Abraham.... By that visualization through the associated thought Abraham... could incubate his [future] children.... The main thing is that we should know the importance of visualization." (The Fourth Dimension Vol.2 pp.26-27)

"We have taught our people how to... visualize success.... Through visualizing and dreaming, you can incubate your future and hatch the results." (The Fourth Dimension, Volume Two, pp. 25-28, 68- The Fourth Dimension, p. 44)

"So men [Christians or occultists], by exploring their spiritual sphere of the fourth dimension through the development of concentrated visions and dreams in their imagination, can brood over and incubate the third dimension, influencing and changing it." "This is what the Holy Spirit taught me." (The Fourth Dimension p. 39-44)

The Holy Spirit taught him something that the Christian church never had in scripture or taught in the early church. But occultists have for thousands of years. It is one thing to receive a vision from God it is another to conjure it up oneself.

Show me the word visualization, imaging, or the practice of other such techniques. You cannot find them. But, you will find these words and techniques used in occultism.

Show me in Scripture where Jesus or Paul or anyone else used such techniques as imaging or visualization for prayer or healing. Show me in God's Word where they achieved God's presence or had spiritual experiences through mind pictures.

Learning a technique to contact or see Jesus is not biblical. We pray and God hears. He may speak in the time of prayer he may not, he may speak at a completely different time. As Christians we operate by faith not by sight.

Before this became a popular practice in Christian circles, Napoleon Hill wrote about imagery and visualization in his book, Think and Grow Rich. He writes, "The THIRTEENTH principle is known as the sixth sense, through which Infinite Intelligence may and will communicate voluntarily, without any effort from, or demands by, the individual.... Step by step, through the preceding chapters, you have been led to this, the last principle. If you have mastered each of the preceding principles, you are now prepared to accept, without being skeptical, the stupendous claims made here...."Just before going to sleep at night. I would shut my eyes, and see, in my imagination, this group of men seated with me around my council table.... After some months of this nightly procedure, I was astounded by the discovery that these imaginary figures became apparently real." "Each of these nine men developed individual characteristics, which surprised me.... "These meetings became so realistic that I became fearful of their consequences, and discontinued them for several months. The experiences were so uncanny, I was afraid if I continued them I would lose sight of the fact that the meetings were purely experiences of my imagination. .... Whatever you believe that the adviser is a spirit, a guardian angel, a messenger from God, a hallucination, a communication from your right brain to your left, or a symbolic representation of inner wisdom is all right. The fact is, no one knows what it is with any certainty. We can each decide for ourselves....

"Sometimes people will encounter religious figures like Jesus, Moses, or Buddha, while others will find an angel, fairy, or leprechaun. People sometimes encounter the adviser as a light or a translucent spirit.... The best way to work with this and any other imagery experience is just to let the figures be whatever they are. Welcome the adviser that comes and get to know it as it is."

The bible was written in words Jeremiah said the people refuse to hear my words and follow the imagination of their own heart.

I Jn. 5:15 "And if we know that He hears us, whatever we ask, we know that we have the petitions that we have asked of Him." The Lord says to ask, never to envision or see it! The Lord can give us a vision but it is not something we work up on our own it comes when we don't expect it.

Visions or "encounters with God" recorded in Scripture were not achieved through any self-induced methods, but through the divine intervention of a sovereign God (Genesis 15;1; Genesis 20:3; Genesis 31:24; I Kings 3:5; Daniel 10:1)

In Jeremiahs time there were lots of people roaming around as prophets and having visions saying God has spoken to me. There is a difference of someone receiving a vision of revelation from the Lord and conjuring up one from his own imagination

Jer. 14:14 "And the LORD said to me, "The prophets prophesy lies in My name. I have not sent them, commanded them, nor spoken to them; they prophesy to you a false vision, divination, a worthless thing, and the deceit of their heart."

Jer. 23:16-18 "Thus says the LORD of hosts: "Do not listen to the words of the prophets who prophesy to you. They make you worthless; they speak a vision of their own heart, not from the mouth of the LORD.

Ezek. 13:7 "Have you not seen a futile vision, and have you not spoken false divination? You say, `The LORD says,' but I have not spoken."

Heb. 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. If we are seeing, then this is the opposite of faith. Nowhere does the Bible encourage anyone to visualize to see the future or to receive an answer in prayer. It has always been found in the occult.

We walk by faith not by sight

 

[StrawberryQueen]

Re: CTD: Visualization and Christianity : What do you make of this?

Well someome doesn't like this topic But I will say that unless you are visualizing something "bad" that there's nothing wrong with it.

To say it's part of the occult IMO if like saying it's bad to have an imagination. Just imagine/visualize good/positive things.

I am trying to do more of visualizations when I pray, thanks for this. I will work harder on it, so that I can focus more wholly on the Lord and His glory.

The information that you posted sounds very contridictory in many places, don't know really what to make of it. Thanks anayway.

 

[Omoge]

I know its long, I apologize in advance.

I ask, because isn't visualization something we all do? Isn't that also one of the principles of LOA? This article clearly lectures against visualization.

I sometimes visualize to calm myself down especially when trying to accomplish and learn new things I might otherwise be nervous about.
E.g. I'm currently taking swimming lessons and I had a fear of water, however I pictured myself swimming excellently and that helps me get over the fear. Thats just one example.


I say I don't subscribe to LOA, yet I caught myself doing more visualization exercises to get over my fear of new experiences moreso after hearing about LOA. Like why am I practicing recommended principles of a concept I don't agree with??

I mean I did it once in a while before I heard about LOA, but am doing it more after.

That is what made me research the topic some more and this is what I came accross.


Isn't visualization normal and even commonsensical?

Are any of you using visualization techniques for anything?

Do you agree with the whole article?

Do you agree with parts of the article?

Where and how do you draw the line if you do agree with this article?

Do you disagree with this article?

 

[Omoge]

Re: CTD: Visualization and Christianity : What do you make of this?

Well someome doesn't like this topic But I will say that unless you are visualizing something "bad" that there's nothing wrong with it.

To say it's part of the occult IMO if like saying it's bad to have an imagination. Just imagine/visualize good/positive things.

I am trying to do more of visualizations when I pray, thanks for this. I will work harder on it, so that I can focus more wholly on the Lord and His glory.

The information that you posted sounds very contridictory in many places, don't know really what to make of it. Thanks anayway.

Yeah, I found it a bit confusing, and thats why I posted it. I have heard about visualization used in a occult practices, but I realize alot of us use it in different ways in our day to day lives. Thats why I posted, to get different perspectives from other Christians.

 

[StrawberryQueen]

Re: CTD: Visualization and Christianity : What do you make of this?

Oh and I gave your thread 5 stars!

 

[Omoge]

Oh, did it get a one star before? I guess the article is too long for some. Thanks though.

 

[Omoge]

Ok, this article is a bit more straightforward. I'll just post the link.

http://www.inplainsite.org/html/visualization.html

 

[PaperClip]

I kinda browsed this thread.... but from the title alone and a couple of glances around, here's what popped in my mind:

Habakkuk 2:2
And the LORD answered me, and said, Write the vision, and make it plain upon tables, that he may run that readeth it.

Habakkuk 2:3
For the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry.

Same scriptures, NIV:

2 Then the LORD replied:
"Write down the revelation
and make it plain on tablets
so that a herald [b] may run with it.
3 For the revelation awaits an appointed time;
it speaks of the end
and will not prove false.
Though it linger, wait for it;
it [c] will certainly come and will not delay.

So for me, and I think someone else alluded to this point, is what's being "visioned" or "visualized". The Lord operates in visions. He shows visions to his people... and that's what we write, what the Lord shows us. I believe it is spiritually "legal" to visualize in that a person can see him/herself in a situation they want to be in or what they want to get out of, as it lines up with the Word, Will, and Way of the Lord.

I also believe that "thinking" and "visualization" can go hand in hand. The definition of think is:

1: to form or have in the mind
2: to have as an intention <thought to return early>
3 a: to have as an opinion <think it's so> b: to regard as : consider <think the rule unfair>
4 a: to reflect on : ponder <think the matter over> b: to determine by reflecting <think what to do next>
5: to call to mind : remember <he never thinks to ask how we do>
6: to devise by thinking — usually used with up <thought up a plan to escape>
7: to have as an expectation : anticipate <we didn't think we'd have any trouble>
8 a: to center one's thoughts on <talks and thinks business> **b: to form a mental picture of**
9: to subject to the processes of logical thought <think things out>


And the beauty of the Lord Jesus Christ is that, as the Perfect Guide He is (without FORCE), He TELLS us what to think about:

Philippians 4:8
Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

And just some other scriptures for good measure:

Psalm 40:17
But I am poor and needy; yet the Lord thinketh upon me: thou art my help and my deliverer; make no tarrying, O my God.

Proverbs 23:7
For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he: Eat and drink, saith he to thee; but his heart is not with thee.

Jeremiah 29:11
For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.

Jonah 1:6
So the shipmaster came to him, and said unto him, What meanest thou, O sleeper? arise, call upon thy God, if so be that God will think upon us, that we perish not.

Matthew 5:17
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Acts 26:2
I think myself happy, king Agrippa, because I shall answer for myself this day before thee touching all the things whereof I am accused of the Jews:

 

[Shimmie]

I kinda browsed this thread.... but from the title alone and a couple of glances around, here's what popped in my mind:

Habakkuk 2:2
And the LORD answered me, and said, Write the vision, and make it plain upon tables, that he may run that readeth it.

Habakkuk 2:3
For the vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry.

Same scriptures, NIV:

2 Then the LORD replied:
"Write down the revelation
and make it plain on tablets
so that a herald [b] may run with it.
3 For the revelation awaits an appointed time;
it speaks of the end
and will not prove false.
Though it linger, wait for it;
it [c] will certainly come and will not delay.

So for me, and I think someone else alluded to this point, is what's being "visioned" or "visualized". The Lord operates in visions. He shows visions to his people... and that's what we write, what the Lord shows us. I believe it is spiritually "legal" to visualize in that a person can see him/herself in a situation they want to be in or what they want to get out of, as it lines up with the Word, Will, and Way of the Lord.

I also believe that "thinking" and "visualization" can go hand in hand. The definition of think is:

1: to form or have in the mind
2: to have as an intention <thought to return early>
3 a: to have as an opinion <think it's so> b: to regard as : consider <think the rule unfair>
4 a: to reflect on : ponder <think the matter over> b: to determine by reflecting <think what to do next>
5: to call to mind : remember <he never thinks to ask how we do>
6: to devise by thinking — usually used with up <thought up a plan to escape>
7: to have as an expectation : anticipate <we didn't think we'd have any trouble>
8 a: to center one's thoughts on <talks and thinks business> **b: to form a mental picture of**
9: to subject to the processes of logical thought <think things out>


And the beauty of the Lord Jesus Christ is that, as the Perfect Guide He is (without FORCE), He TELLS us what to think about:

Philippians 4:8
Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.

And just some other scriptures for good measure:

Psalm 40:17
But I am poor and needy; yet the Lord thinketh upon me: thou art my help and my deliverer; make no tarrying, O my God.

Proverbs 23:7
For as he thinketh in his heart, so is he: Eat and drink, saith he to thee; but his heart is not with thee.

Jeremiah 29:11
For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.

Jonah 1:6
So the shipmaster came to him, and said unto him, What meanest thou, O sleeper? arise, call upon thy God, if so be that God will think upon us, that we perish not.

Matthew 5:17
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Acts 26:2
I think myself happy, king Agrippa, because I shall answer for myself this day before thee touching all the things whereof I am accused of the Jews:

Excellent answers and you have given them their RIGHTFUL place and have acknowledged the Origin is of God. These are His words.

Not those diverted, converted, and plagerized to give glory to the creation rather than to the Creator.

 

[gn1g]

Excellent answers and you have given them their RIGHTFUL place and have acknowledged the Origin is of God. These are His words.

Not those diverted, converted, and plagerized to give glory to the creation rather than to the Creator.

in the words of the members of any congregation:

"YOU BETTER PREACH"

One thing that stuck with me from Creflo $

"what is it that you can see that no one else can see?" You got'sta have a vision.

 

[Omoge]

Thanks for all your input and biblical references, its nice to get other perspectives on these types of subjects.
I'm impressed with how well versed you all are in the Bible...I've got lots of work to do.

 

[Shimmie]

in the words of the members of any congregation:

"YOU BETTER PREACH"

One thing that stuck with me from Creflo $

"what is it that you can see that no one else can see?" You got'sta have a vision.

Me? Preach? Nawwww...

But Hey There Pretty Lady...

The thing is, God's word does say, that without a vision, a man will perish. All through the Bible God gave men (and women) a vision.

He asked Abraham to look up at the stars; and God told Abraham that he seed would be numbered as such. God gave Abraham a 'visual' of his generations. Abraham would be a father of many. So each time Abraham felt discouraged when Sarah, ihs wife, was still not conceiving, all he had t do was look up at the promise that God wrote for him among the stars.

He gave Joseph a vision of the stars bowing before him. This was a promise that 'kept' Joseph from being betrayed and sold by his brothers; the encounter (seduction) by Potipher's wife; and the prison. Joseph had the vision of being a ruler one day, which God promised and showed him in a dream.

God did the same for me. He gave me one promise after another from His word, that blessed is the fruit of my body; that my 'seed' would be blessed; and great would my seed be. These promises and MORE from His word, kept me during the time my son was on drugs and I feared the very worse; even when things didn't seem to get better, I had the 'vision' of my seed being blessed and increased that God promised and it all came to past, just as He said.

The PROBLEM with visualization and the vast and dangerous difference is WHO and WHAT is the source of the vision? If God didn't give it, then the vision is 'suspect' and definitely up for 'grabs' to be lost or stolen; for if the world didn't give it, the world can't take it away.

OR if we do not have the wisdom to give Glory to God who is the one who originated "visions', that these are HIS virtues, not anyone or anything else's...than it is still suspect, for it will not have God's protection over it. He has no obligation to do so...why should He? Afterall, those who call it their own, have to protect their own and eventually the stress will wear them out.

It's all God's glory, not man's and most certainly not the devil's.