There is no Hell say John Shelby Spong. What are your thoughts?

[Ithacagurl]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SF6I5VSZVqc&feature=share

 

[Iwanthealthyhair67]

bible clearly says except a man be born again he cannot enter the kingdom of heaven ....and in another he says ye must be born again...


this man is deceived

 

[InVue]

Yes, he is deceived...

This is my take. I am a Christian who believes in a literal hell. I also believe “it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment.” In addition, I believe “everyone of us shall give account of himself to God.” If there is no hell as he states, and there is no judgment those of us who obey the bible have nothing to worry about.

But what if we are right in believing “if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment.” What if we are right in believing that “the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burn with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.” If there is judgment after death as the scripture states those people who commit these acts have plenty to worry about.

Jesus speaks about hell in Matthew he even identifies the type actions that can send you there. But like I said if we believers are wrong then we have nothing to worry about. But if we are right...

You’ve got to know the scriptures for yourself or you will be easily deceived. Especially when so-called ministers say what you (speaking in general not to OP) want to hear. This thing is real and the devil is seeking to deceive as many people as he can as he knows his time is running out.

Source: Hebrews 9:27, Romans 14:12, Isaiah 14:9, 2Peter 2:4, and Revelation 20:15

 

[blazingthru]

i understand what he is saying, I do not agree, but I do agree that it has been used as a fear tactic for many years and still is being used for that purpose today. I know hell does not exist now that it is something coming in the near future. I also believe that HEll is a deeply confusing subject that many get lost within, myself and others spent so many years of our life being afraid of something that doesn't exist and doesn't mean what people believe it means at all. Since I spoken on this subject so many times I won't go into detail. I don't agree with the speaker beliefs because it doesn't align with scripture but I do agree, that the focus should never be on hell at all. That that isnt' a place design for humans, unless that is their choice. We should be focused on life ever lasting and not perishing. Which by the way, is the key word that no one lives forever except those who are in christ the rest PERISH.

John 3:16

King James Version (KJV)

16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Nahum 1:9

King James Version (KJV)

9What do ye imagine against the LORD? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time


Romans 6:23

King James Version (KJV)

23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[aribell]

I think eternal separation from God should scare people. I was born again through coming to grips with the reality of hell, and don't believe it.takes away from the Gospel message. I want to.write more, including my testimony, but I will have to come back later, as I'm on my phone at the moment.

PS--it's widely known (among Anglicans at least) that Spong is apostate. I'd steer clear of anything associated with his name.

 

[sweetvi]

nicola.kirwan

would love to hear your testimony

 

[aribell]

I saw the first part of the video and Spong was talking about how religious leaders are in the business of controlling the people, and that teaching the concept of hell is a means of such control. The fact that he is a religious leader himself doesn't seem to matter...but anyway, hell is something that is shown to be real in Scripture, and no one picking up the Bible and taking it seriously needs a religious leader to tell them about it...hence, my testimony:

I was brought up "traditionally" Baptist with parents who had stopped attending church when I was young. I attended a Catholic school, and so I went to Mass and had religion class. Even at a very young age I had faith in God and wanted to participate as much in church and the sacraments as possible. So that I could be a full member of the church community, I convinced my mom to convert to Catholicism when I was 11 and we did. I kept doing and believing what I was taught.

When I was in the 8th grade, a friend started arguing with the religion teacher about various aspects of Catholicism that Protestants generally argue with Catholics about. After listening to her questions, I felt that if I was supposed to be a Christian and was supposed to believe the Bible, then I should know what it says myself. So I went home and got my mom's King James Bible with a white leather cover and tiny print. Nothing fancy or extra, just text on a page. I think I started with Ecclesiastes (idk why), and then Genesis...and by the summer I was reading Revelation. I hadn't read all the way through, but I just remember by that June I had finished Revelation. (I should say that I had no problems whatsoever understanding the Bible. I'm not saying that to my credit, I just truly believe that the Lord makes His word clear to all who are seeking Him in truth--even a 14 year old girl reading the KJV on her own with no one else to talk to about it.)

When I see arguments between Christians today about whether Revelation is allegory or literal, past or future, or something in between, I often think back to my first time reading it and think they're missing the point. The overarching message of Revelation is that there is a distinction between those who are God's people and those who are not--and those who are God's people will ultimately reign with Him, and those who are not will be condemned. And this truth hit me to the core when I read about the lake of fire.

11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. 13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. 14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

21 Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. 2 And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. 4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.”

5 And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” 6 And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment. 7 The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

 

[aribell]

I saw the bolded and knew immediately that whatever it meant to be one of God’s righteous ones, I was not it. I do not have a testimony of having been some bad seed. I did well in school, never got in trouble, and like I mentioned before, was eager to be involved in church and know more about God. But Jesus also teaches us that sin is of the heart…and no matter how great we are outwardly, we know whether we have ever lied or had impure thoughts or meddled in witchcraft, or put something before God. And I had spent years confessing my sins, so there was not even an attempt on my part to pretend like I was beyond sin. But I had a serious dilemma: In this passage, God says that anyone who is any of those things will be thrown into the lake of fire at the last judgment. Even if I could admit that I was a sinner, how would that help me avoid God’s wrath???

I had no answer to that question and sunk into a depression. I wrote in my journal that I truly believed I would be condemned by God. I wasn’t being dramatic, I just believed what I had read and didn’t know how to get around it. I decided to ask my Mom what she thought it took to go to heaven. She told me that I had nothing to worry about, that I was a good person, I wasn’t cruel to anyone, so I would go to heaven. That made me feel slightly better for about 5 minutes. But then I kept coming back to the Word, and it seemed perfectly clear that being a sinner leads you to hell. This was undoubtedly the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

I continued to feel depressed for a week or two, until one day I got this email. Now, this was like 1999, so we’re talking AOL 2.0 (lol). I got this e-mail from someone—I have absolutely no clue who—and it had a link in it. I followed the link, and there was a flash video. There was a black image of a man on a cross on top of a hill, and then John 3:16 came on the screen: “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish, but shall have everlasting life.”

Then under that image there was text, and in bold letters it said: “DO YOU WANT TO KNOW HOW TO AVOID CONDEMNATION AND HELL?” Ladies, I kid you not, that is what it said (or something very similar). But it expressed exactly the question that had been plaguing me for the past couple of weeks. And I was like, “Yes! I want to know!” And it went on to explain that we cannot be considered righteous based on our own works, but that God sent Christ to die on the Cross so that we could be reconciled to God. And that we could believe on Christ, have our sins forgiven, and have Christ as the basis of our righteousness before God. There was a sinner’s prayer, which I prayed, and I have to tell you that I immediately experienced an immediate lift in my spirit and such joy. I was so happy. I wrote in my journal again about it, and even my handwriting had changed. It almost looks like someone else started writing in that journal after that day. I continued to read the Bible (eventually got to the Gospels), found resources on the internet, listened to preachers on the radio, talked with a Christian friend…and as they say, the rest is history.

 

[aribell]

I feel that I should explain how, being of such a religious background, I didn't understand the Gospel: Essentially, no one ever laid it out. Yes, we constantly celebrated Jesus' resurrection, read Scripture, confessed sins, prayed, etc. But the personal aspect of it--your sin separating you from God was not really expressed. And that probably hits at why hell does need to be talked about. You can believe in Jesus all day long and not ever be confronted on where the road you are currently on is going to end. People choose not to believe in hell because they don't want to believe in God's judgment. And many times they want to believe that they are good enough on their own merit to stand before God.

Human beings are fallen and selfish by nature. Even if we want to do what is good, we lapse and do what is expedient or self serving. Preaching on hell prods people into line and puts them in a position where a genuine love of God can begin to grow. Christians don't serve God purely out of a fear of going to hell, but when we wrestle against the temptation of the world, the flesh and the devil, knowing that we will answer to God in judgment keeps things in perspective. There are always consequences to what we choose to do or not do. Eternity is no different.

 

[DaiseeDay]

Thanks for sharing nicola.kirwan that's an awesome testimony!

Without hell there is no gospel.

 

[VictoriousBrownFlower]

With everything good theres something bad to counterbalance it. I do believe we create our own hell. Its not what we imagine it is. Hell is just when our soul isn't at rest.

 

[BostonMaria]

It would be nice if hell didn't exist and we all go to heaven. If there's no hell then why did Jesus have to die for our sins?

Looks to me like he has lost his faith. He doesn't even believe in miracles either. Shame on anyone listening to this guy.

 

[aribell]

Thanks for sharing nicola.kirwan that's an awesome testimony!

Without hell there is no gospel.

I hope more than anything that the faithfulness of God is shown through it. That is one thing I know about Him through and through--He is and has always been completely faithful. If anyone wants to know Him, He will meet them. Of course, He loved us first, but no matter what the circumstances, if you draw near to God, He will draw near to you and bring you whatever you need to come to the truth.

 

[auparavant]

Not quite sure which thread on hell to put this in, but I came across this interesting perspective recently and decided to share:

Luke 16.19-28: 'Bosom of Abraham', 'Hades', and 'Sheol'

Monachos.net http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?6925-Luke-16-19-28-Bosom-of-Abraham-Hades-and-Sheol

In these Gospel verses, Christ describes (v. 22) the beggar, Lazarus, as being carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom (lit. 'bosoms' since the Greek word is in the plural). The rich man went to hell (v. 23) though we ought rather to say 'hades'. Yet, this hades is described as a place of torment (v. 28) and so is more like our conception of hell than hades. The bosom of Abraham is more like our conception of paradise or heaven (and is shown as such in the Church's iconography). The two places are described as being far off from each other (v. 23) and separated by 'a great gulf' (v. 26).

How does this apparent reference to heaven or paradise and hell or hades fit in with the idea that all the dead were in hades when Christ came on Holy Saturday to vanquish death? The translation of the Greek word 'hades' as 'hell' is both wrong and misleading. Hades is used in the LXX as a way of expressing the Jewish word 'Sheol' (capitalised because in Hebrew it is a proper noun). In the Jewish tradition, Sheol is the abode of all the dead and the dominion of death. There are various OT references to it (e.g. Isaiah 38:18 and in the Psalms - 6:6, 29:9, 87:11-13, 113:25). It seems to be a shadowy condition of forgetfulness. It is said, though (e.g. in the article, 'Heaven and Hell in the Afterlife' by Peter Chopelas), that in Jewish thought, Sheol was experienced differently by people according to their spiritual condition: paradise for some, the fire of Gehenna for others. This is because God is present everywhere and His presence and glory are felt by the sinners and the righteous respectively as torment or blessedness. If this is so, then Lazarus and the rich man are not in 'two places' but in Sheol or hades, yet experiencing God differently. So, the 'great gulf' must be spiritual. (Different from hades, presumably, is Tartarus where, according to St Peter (2 Peter 2:4), the 'sinning angels' are kept.) Though some of the dead, such as Lazarus, enjoyed blessedness, yet the Orthodox Tradition is that hades was a kind of prison. The liturgical tradition is full of references to the gates and bars of hades which are also depicted in the icons of Christ's descent into hades. These gates and bars are smashed by Christ. The Holy Fathers have varying views about who was released from hades, but, leaving that question aside, if it is true that the OT righteous and those such as Lazarus the beggar, enjoyed the bosom of Abraham as a condition experienced in Sheol or hades, in what way is the paradise of those saved after Christ different from the bosom of Abraham? And should we not think of paradise (or heaven) and hell as 'two places' but, like Sheol or hades, as spiritual conditions, and if so how are we to understand the difference between things after the Resurrection from what they were before Christ's descent into hades?

 

[Galadriel]

I think eternal separation from God should scare people. I was born again through coming to grips with the reality of hell, and don't believe it.takes away from the Gospel message. I want to.write more, including my testimony, but I will have to come back later, as I'm on my phone at the moment.

PS--it's widely known (among Anglicans at least) that Spong is apostate. I'd steer clear of anything associated with his name.

Well put. Jesus Christ died for us in order to save us from going to Hell. That IS the Gospel message.

 

[Galadriel]

Nice breakdown of the terminology . I think the guy in question is rejecting the existence of hell (as in gehenna, tatarus).

Not quite sure which thread on hell to put this in, but I came across this interesting perspective recently and decided to share:

Luke 16.19-28: 'Bosom of Abraham', 'Hades', and 'Sheol'

Monachos.net http://www.monachos.net/forum/showthread.php?6925-Luke-16-19-28-Bosom-of-Abraham-Hades-and-Sheol

In these Gospel verses, Christ describes (v. 22) the beggar, Lazarus, as being carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom (lit. 'bosoms' since the Greek word is in the plural). The rich man went to hell (v. 23) though we ought rather to say 'hades'. Yet, this hades is described as a place of torment (v. 28) and so is more like our conception of hell than hades. The bosom of Abraham is more like our conception of paradise or heaven (and is shown as such in the Church's iconography). The two places are described as being far off from each other (v. 23) and separated by 'a great gulf' (v. 26).

How does this apparent reference to heaven or paradise and hell or hades fit in with the idea that all the dead were in hades when Christ came on Holy Saturday to vanquish death? The translation of the Greek word 'hades' as 'hell' is both wrong and misleading. Hades is used in the LXX as a way of expressing the Jewish word 'Sheol' (capitalised because in Hebrew it is a proper noun). In the Jewish tradition, Sheol is the abode of all the dead and the dominion of death. There are various OT references to it (e.g. Isaiah 38:18 and in the Psalms - 6:6, 29:9, 87:11-13, 113:25). It seems to be a shadowy condition of forgetfulness. It is said, though (e.g. in the article, 'Heaven and Hell in the Afterlife' by Peter Chopelas), that in Jewish thought, Sheol was experienced differently by people according to their spiritual condition: paradise for some, the fire of Gehenna for others. This is because God is present everywhere and His presence and glory are felt by the sinners and the righteous respectively as torment or blessedness. If this is so, then Lazarus and the rich man are not in 'two places' but in Sheol or hades, yet experiencing God differently. So, the 'great gulf' must be spiritual. (Different from hades, presumably, is Tartarus where, according to St Peter (2 Peter 2:4), the 'sinning angels' are kept.) Though some of the dead, such as Lazarus, enjoyed blessedness, yet the Orthodox Tradition is that hades was a kind of prison. The liturgical tradition is full of references to the gates and bars of hades which are also depicted in the icons of Christ's descent into hades. These gates and bars are smashed by Christ. The Holy Fathers have varying views about who was released from hades, but, leaving that question aside, if it is true that the OT righteous and those such as Lazarus the beggar, enjoyed the bosom of Abraham as a condition experienced in Sheol or hades, in what way is the paradise of those saved after Christ different from the bosom of Abraham? And should we not think of paradise (or heaven) and hell as 'two places' but, like Sheol or hades, as spiritual conditions, and if so how are we to understand the difference between things after the Resurrection from what they were before Christ's descent into hades?

 

[auparavant]

I believe it to be a specific place but am not sure if it's all around us, just as heaven might be all around us and depending upon which spiritual/physical plane we are in, if we experience any of it to varying degrees. That's not to say I don't believe in punishment in a place called "gehenna" or "hell." I, too, wonder about the beatific vision of the saved in heave and if those varying levels of heaven are separate from the attained level of others or if their vision differs.

 

[Galadriel]

I believe it to be a specific place but am not sure if it's all around us, just as heaven might be all around us and depending upon which spiritual/physical plane we are in, if we experience any of it to varying degrees. That's not to say I don't believe in punishment in a place called "gehenna" or "hell." I, too, wonder about the beatific vision of the saved in heave and if those varying levels of heaven are separate from the attained level of others or if their vision differs.

As I understand it, there are varying degrees of glory and happiness at experiencing the Beatific Vision, but it is all one Heaven.