Spinoff to: Dilliards and Dominican threads...

[MizaniMami]

Hey Ladies,

I have a few questions that has been on my mind since I started my long hair quest in January. I hope this doesn't offend anyone, but I think it shouldn't.

Before I became really serious about this hair thing I used to moisturize my hair about once in every 4 days. I figured that most white women, hispanics, asians, and other races didn't have to moisturize their straight hair everyday so why should I?

My hair never really suffered from lack of moisture but I always wondered what is so different about our hair that we have to moisturize daily (sometimes 2 and 3 times a day). I am not speaking about naturals or anyone with curly hair, I am speaking of straight hair or natural hair with little to any wave. I know about the curl pattern thingy and how it contributes to dryness so that's why for this purpose I am speaking of relaxed or straighter hair types.

How is it that other races can perm, color, blowdry, and flat iron the HECK out of their hair but still have APL, or even WL hair? I know not all of them do these practices so I am speaking about the ones I do know, which is A LOT of them. We have to moisturize our hair daily, some people feel like they should protective style, avoid heat, pack on moisturizers daily, and so on. But they simply (it seems like) do not have to do much to get that long hair we are seriously fighting for.

Is our hair really that weaker than other races?? Why do we have to do so much and they don't? If hair is composed of all the same components/elements why do we have to treat our hair so differently? What makes their hair thrive during abuse but ours just deterioate (sp? I'm too lazy to look it up)?

**Just for the record I know that not all other races use heat and such on their hair and that relaxers break down the bonds in our hair, but if they constantly are blowdrying, bleaching (which is the equivalent to relaxers IMO), and such then why isn't their hair as sensitive than ours?

Something to think about

 

[beyondcute]

Im not saying nuffin! Just waiting for responses... Oh I will say this.. All hair is made up of the same ingredients.

 

[MizaniMami]

Im not saying nuffin! Just waiting for responses... Oh I will say this.. All hair is made up of the same ingredients.

Why not? Now you got me curious...

Seems like a lot of people are avoiding commenting, so it would be nice to hear what you have to say?

 

[Poohbear]

When I had armpit length relaxed hair back when I was in high school, all I did was relax, shampoo, blowdry, use grease, and curling irons... that's it! I never moisturized my hair daily and still had armpit length hair. I also know other blacks with APL or WL hair that also do those things (perm, color, heat, etc). I really don't believe that blacks have to moisturize their hair daily, whether relaxed or natural. Everyone's hair is different and everyone does different things to their hair. Some methods work for some, and those same methods may not work for others... regardless of race. Try not to see it in terms of race but in terms of individual preferences and how individuals take care of their hair differently (if that makes any sense). Hope that answers your questions in some form or fashion.

 

[Angelicus]

I can only speak for my hair, which is type 6f

For those that don't know the reason why my hair doesn't retain moisture: My hair is wavy, curly, coily, frizzy, and straight all at the same time. Think about when you go down a slide that is at a perfect 45 degree angle. You are going down the slide at a pretty fast rate because you're traveling in a straight line.

Now, think about going down a slide that has curves, grooves, turns, meanders, holes,... Think about how long it takes for you to get to the bottom of that slide. Much longer than going down a straight slide.

Well those slides are just like hair. Straight hair gets oily fast because it takes less time for the sebum (or whatever moisturizer) to go down the hair shaft. I (and many other type 6f people have coily, wavy hair. Because of the shape of my hair strand, sebum (and other oil) takes a long time to go down the hair shaft... so I have to help it with manual moisturizing treatments.

I have some wiry, naturally straight parts of my hair that are very hard to moisturize because they have a lot of kinks in them. Noooo Kinky isn't a nasty word... it just means "deviation." There are really small kinks in the wiry part of hair that just doesn't retain moisture as well as other parts... and even though it looks straight, I look at it really closely and it's not.

To answer Mizani's question: I see hair of all races look like crap. I've been looking critically at all hair types since 2003 and I don't see too many 1a's-2c's that really WOW me. Bad hair isn't just a black thing. Many people with healthy hair call it a mind over matter thing: if you don't mind... it doesn't matter, and it'll grow.

It could be anything: Genetics, food, hormone pills, diet, weave. I just can't look at someone and say "Wow, she has long hair because..." because there's so many causes that make the effect.

I think that we beat up ourselves too much. I remember liking one lady's 1b hair and she even offered to let me touch it. Gross! It was full of hairspray and styling gel... even though it looked great, it felt a mess. Who wants good looking, untouchable hair? All that glitters...

sorry for the rambling. back to your regularly scheduled program.

 

[Crissi]

I've wondered this for ages. If they don't have to "care" about their hair, why should we have a panic attack about it? When I weaved my hair up for 2 - 3 months a time, and put NO products on my hair (except for a lil oil when it got a bit dry). I would also get my hair pressed withe marcel if I had an occasion, and my hair was the best its ever been. Imo I've learnt that doing nothing = success. Come on, lets take a look at men, they do nothing, and their hair speaks for its self whether its 2a for 4zzzzz.

 

[nurseN98]

I don't think black folks hair is necessarily weaker, it is just different. If you relax "our" hair you are weakening the hair in addition to the differences that already exist, you have to baby it a little more. Would you call other races hair weak because you can't put in a set of twists that would stay in for more than 10 sec?

 

[MizaniMami]

I can only speak for my hair, which is type 6f

For those that don't know the reason why my hair doesn't retain moisture: My hair is wavy, curly, coily, frizzy, and straight all at the same time. Think about when you go down a slide that is at a perfect 45 degree angle. You are going down the slide at a pretty fast rate because you're traveling in a straight line.

Now, think about going down a slide that has curves, grooves, turns, meanders, holes,... Think about how long it takes for you to get to the bottom of that slide. Much longer than going down a straight slide.

Well those slides are just like hair. Straight hair gets oily fast because it takes less time for the sebum (or whatever moisturizer) to go down the hair shaft. I (and many other type 6f people have coily, wavy hair. Because of the shape of my hair strand, sebum (and other oil) takes a long time to go down the hair shaft... so I have to help it with manual moisturizing treatments.

I have some wiry, naturally straight parts of my hair that are very hard to moisturize because they have a lot of kinks in them. Noooo Kinky isn't a nasty word... it just means "deviation." There are really small kinks in the wiry part of hair that just doesn't retain moisture as well as other parts... and even though it looks straight, I look at it really closely and it's not.

To answer Mizani's question: I see hair of all races look like crap. I've been looking critically at all hair types since 2003 and I don't see too many 1a's-2c's that really WOW me. Bad hair isn't just a black thing. Many people with healthy hair call it a mind over matter thing: if you don't mind... it doesn't matter, and it'll grow.

It could be anything: Genetics, food, hormone pills, diet, weave. I just can't look at someone and say "Wow, she has long hair because..." because there's so many causes that make the effect.

I think that we beat up ourselves too much. I remember liking one lady's 1b hair and she even offered to let me touch it. Gross! It was full of hairspray and styling gel... even though it looked great, it felt a mess. Who wants good looking, untouchable hair? All that glitters...

sorry for the rambling. back to your regularly scheduled program.

Yes, I understand that. And trust I am not beating myself up. I understand the whole with curly hair becomes dryness thing.

I don't really think some of you really understand my question. I am not equating black hair with bad hair AT ALL. But I don't know how to word it any better, so I guess I will leave it at that and hope someone sees the intention of my post.

It's just that we go through so much (protective styling, moisturizing, no heat, and so on) and they do the nec. and get to where we want to be.

 

[SohoHair]

I understand what you are talking about completely. One of my good friends is asian with naturally, curly, frizzy, out of control hair that if left alone is basically a 'fro. She chemically relaxes her hair every 3 to 6 month, dyes it with any old hair color that she finds at walgreens, and then proceeds to iron it stick straight every single day. Now when I say iron, I don't mean flat-iron, I mean she cranks up her IRON and gets to work. Yet this girl has past waistlength, shiny, bouncy, gorgeous hair that she gets compliments on all the time. Things like that boggle the mind....

 

[dimpalz]

I think I get what your saying Miz but I think the problem is obvious. If our hair is in its natural state we get the problems anky said, if it's relaxed it needs the extra care because now its not like everyone elses anymore. We've broken down the bonds etc which is why we need the protein treatments to constantly help repair them.

I know a few people, 7 of my cousins - thats makes all the girls but me - on my mums side. They dont wrap, they blowdry, they flatiron, they sleep with NOTHING on their heads on COTTON PILLOWCASES, they leave their relaxer 3 months plus and dont wash it til then, daily moisture? I dont think they even know about it. They all have hair down their backs, thick and luscious and theres little me with hardly anything.

Some people hair copes better, just like only some of the people in other races can grow their hair to the floor. I think the moisture and oils plays a big part too though, but again it depends on your hair and of course al those other personal factors

 

[sweetascocoa]

yes our hair is dryer because its hard for moisture to travel through a hard strand because of the curls. the smaller the curls, 4a/4b th wealer it will be.

 

[Victorian]

I am not speaking about naturals or anyone with curly hair, I am speaking of straight hair or natural hair with little to any wave. I know about the curl pattern thingy and how it contributes to dryness so that's why for this purpose I am speaking of relaxed or straighter hair types.

I've read a few articles online about hair structure and while some vary slightly on the "average" growth rates and number of shed hairs, etc, they all seem to agree that the SHAPE of afro-textured hair is different. I don't mean the curl pattern, I mean the cross-section of an individual hair looks different from caucasion hair which also looks different from asian hair. Afro-textured hair is flatter, and Asian hair is nearly circular, with caucasion hair being somewhere inbetween. I've also read that our hair tends to have more layers in the cortex. Different types of hair are made up of the same materials, and they have the same basic components, but they aren't put together identically.
If black hair is naturally weaker I guess it would have to do with some properties that result from the shape/structure of the hair.

 

[oglorious1]

All I have to say is this, if you take the time to take care of anything it will show, people believe that kinky hair is strong, when it is actually delicate, our hair can break easily if it is not moisturized, lubricated, whatever...but anyway, if you want to reach your goal you're gonna have to take care of your hair just like any other part of your body, it take time and patience.


In order to get something you've never had, you've got to do something you've never done.

 

[carameldiva]

they have their fair share of struggles and do protective styling and no heat, no mineral/petroleum too. I know i met with some caucassian and asian friends yesterday for a trip to the zoo. We are all members of another long hair community online and i tell you when these ladies and gents dropped those buns and braids- their hair hit their feet and calves and whatnot. It was healthy and amazing. But it was not an easy task for any of them, one of the gents whom i have admired for the last 5 years told me that he has recently been experiencing severe shedding woes so he stepped up his vitamin regimine. For examples check out www.forums.longhaircommunity.com

 

[Angelicus]

I've read a few articles online about hair structure and while some vary slightly on the "average" growth rates and number of shed hairs, etc, they all seem to agree that the SHAPE of afro-textured hair is different. I don't mean the curl pattern, I mean the cross-section of an individual hair looks different from caucasion hair which also looks different from asian hair. Afro-textured hair is flatter, and Asian hair is nearly circular, with caucasion hair being somewhere inbetween. I've also read that our hair tends to have more layers in the cortex. Different types of hair are made up of the same materials, and they have the same basic components, but they aren't put together identically.
If black hair is naturally weaker I guess it would have to do with some properties that result from the shape/structure of the hair.

Yea, in my cousin's hair school books, it's said that curly/coily/wiry hair has actually an oval cross-section, whereas straighter types have a circular cross-section.

Na, I didn't answer your question.

 

[Isis]

Women of all races need to moisturize their hair - it isn't just AA people. Their hair does not thrive when it's abused, it gets fried, breaks off and splits just like ours does. As I've mentioned before in another thread, check out the Long Hair Community site at: www.longhaircommunity.com.

We too (as you can see here) can also have APL and WL hair or longer if we want to. It's a matter of education ourselves about haircare. The main difference between our haircare and others is that we've been lied to for generations about our hair and manipulated by the haircare industry.

 

[MizaniMami]

Thanks for replying. You ladies have some very interesting views. I actually agree with what most of you are saying. I am aware of longhaircare community and other facts about curly and coily hair.

I guess I need to rephrase my question because a lot of people still didn't really touch on the issue of my question.

But I appreciate you taking your time to reinterate your thoughts

 

[MizaniMami]

I've read a few articles online about hair structure and while some vary slightly on the "average" growth rates and number of shed hairs, etc, they all seem to agree that the SHAPE of afro-textured hair is different. I don't mean the curl pattern, I mean the cross-section of an individual hair looks different from caucasion hair which also looks different from asian hair. Afro-textured hair is flatter, and Asian hair is nearly circular, with caucasion hair being somewhere inbetween. I've also read that our hair tends to have more layers in the cortex. Different types of hair are made up of the same materials, and they have the same basic components, but they aren't put together identically.
If black hair is naturally weaker I guess it would have to do with some properties that result from the shape/structure of the hair.

That is very interesting! Thanks for sharing this!

I bolded the part that mentions that we have more layers in the cortex, wouldn't that contribute to our hair being stronger than other races?

If this is correct where have this notion that our hair is weaker come from?

 

[Victorian]

oops, actually that should say cuticle, not cortex.

Either way I don't know what it means as far as strength. Clearly if our hair was stronger than other types we wouldn't be having these problems. Perhaps having more layers makes our hair less pliable or something and that's why it snaps more easily. I don't know, I'm just throwing stuff out there.

 

[africa]

That is very interesting! Thanks for sharing this!

I bolded the part that mentions that we have more layers in the cortex, wouldn't that contribute to our hair being stronger than other races?

If this is correct where have this notion that our hair is weaker come from?

The thicker cuticle thing is really interesting. I have never heard that. I have no idea about this, so what I'm about to say is a guess.

I would think that a thicker cuticle would also make the hair innately stronger. However, maybe stronger does not = easily retaining length. Maybe the thickness of the cuticle is what makes moisture so hard to penetrate the hair and makes it less flexible and more prone to break and crack if not moisturized and over manipulated.

Also, most people of African descent do not have hair that hangs "down" or "long" in the way most other races does. It likes to defy gravity and grow up and out (maybe again because of the thick cuticle) Contorting our hair into a shape that it does not naturally have (by pressing, relaxing, flat ironing, or whatever) is making it do something that other peoples' hair doesn't have to. This could also make it harder to acheive length. For example, when non-black women perm their hair curly, dye it, or whatever, they are damaging their hair but are not necessarily contorting their hair into a shape is does not normally have (i.e trying to make it hang up and out as opposed to down). Of course, there are some exceptions like Christina Aguilerra .

Anyway, just my 2 cents.

 

[MizAvalon]

I understand what you are talking about completely. One of my good friends is asian with naturally, curly, frizzy, out of control hair that if left alone is basically a 'fro. She chemically relaxes her hair every 3 to 6 month, dyes it with any old hair color that she finds at walgreens, and then proceeds to iron it stick straight every single day. Now when I say iron, I don't mean flat-iron, I mean she cranks up her IRON and gets to work. Yet this girl has past waistlength, shiny, bouncy, gorgeous hair that she gets compliments on all the time. Things like that boggle the mind....

WOOOO!!!! People are still using actual IRONS to straighten their hair?!

 

[SohoHair]

WOOOO!!!! People are still using actual IRONS to straighten their hair?!

It's very wild to watch, she just puts that sucker on high, whips out a medium sized towel then takes the iron on one side of her hair and the towel on the other and passes it down the length of her hair a few times.

 

[Poohbear]

I think I get what your saying Miz but I think the problem is obvious. If our hair is in its natural state we get the problems anky said, if it's relaxed it needs the extra care because now its not like everyone elses anymore. We've broken down the bonds etc which is why we need the protein treatments to constantly help repair them.

I know a few people, 7 of my cousins - thats makes all the girls but me - on my mums side. They dont wrap, they blowdry, they flatiron, they sleep with NOTHING on their heads on COTTON PILLOWCASES, they leave their relaxer 3 months plus and dont wash it til then, daily moisture? I dont think they even know about it. They all have hair down their backs, thick and luscious and theres little me with hardly anything.

Some people hair copes better, just like only some of the people in other races can grow their hair to the floor. I think the moisture and oils plays a big part too though, but again it depends on your hair and of course al those other personal factors

Did you know that I didn't hear about moisturizers and other hair care products until I found LHCF in 2004!? I also would wash my hair until it was time to get a relaxer touch-up.

 

[testimony777]

oops, actually that should say cuticle, not cortex.

Either way I don't know what it means as far as strength. Clearly if our hair was stronger than other types we wouldn't be having these problems. Perhaps having more layers makes our hair less pliable or something and that's why it snaps more easily. I don't know, I'm just throwing stuff out there.

From what I remember the cortex is what gives hair its strength and resiliency. Asian hair has more cortex than any hair type. Afro hair has the least cortex and more cuticle layers. The cuticle layers protect the cortex and they also play a role in how the strands reflect light (which affects whether the hair shines, shimmers or has sheen).

I don't remember the specifics about how all this works, but I do think it (more cortex vs. less cortex) has a lot to do with why some people of other races seem to be able to put their hair through equal (if not worse) treatment as some of us do and not suffer the same affects.

 

[HermioneWeasley]

Hey Ladies,

I have a few questions that has been on my mind since I started my long hair quest in January. I hope this doesn't offend anyone, but I think it shouldn't.

Before I became really serious about this hair thing I used to moisturize my hair about once in every 4 days. I figured that most white women, hispanics, asians, and other races didn't have to moisturize their straight hair everyday so why should I?

My hair never really suffered from lack of moisture but I always wondered what is so different about our hair that we have to moisturize daily (sometimes 2 and 3 times a day). I am not speaking about naturals or anyone with curly hair, I am speaking of straight hair or natural hair with little to any wave. I know about the curl pattern thingy and how it contributes to dryness so that's why for this purpose I am speaking of relaxed or straighter hair types.

How is it that other races can perm, color, blowdry, and flat iron the HECK out of their hair but still have APL, or even WL hair? I know not all of them do these practices so I am speaking about the ones I do know, which is A LOT of them. We have to moisturize our hair daily, some people feel like they should protective style, avoid heat, pack on moisturizers daily, and so on. But they simply (it seems like) do not have to do much to get that long hair we are seriously fighting for.

Is our hair really that weaker than other races?? Why do we have to do so much and they don't? If hair is composed of all the same components/elements why do we have to treat our hair so differently? What makes their hair thrive during abuse but ours just deterioate (sp? I'm too lazy to look it up)?

**Just for the record I know that not all other races use heat and such on their hair and that relaxers break down the bonds in our hair, but if they constantly are blowdrying, bleaching (which is the equivalent to relaxers IMO), and such then why isn't their hair as sensitive than ours?

Something to think about

I sort of understand what you're saying, but I guess in a way I don't, because I thought other ladies generally answered your question but you said no one's really touched on what you were getting at, soo ...

Yes, hair is made up of the same components, essentially, but for the most part, the chemical processes used by whites, Asians, etc. are far less damaging and far less frequent than the ones we relaxed ladies use. I had a white roommate in college who had a curly perm that she got "touched up" every six months, and she still complained about damage. I also think that by and large, coloring isn't as damaging as relaxing. Bleaching, yes, and people who bleach their hair often have jacked up strands. I'll never forget going to a Hair Cuttery to get a trim and falling into convo with a stylist. She was telling me that one of her longtime clients had started bleaching her hair and now it felt so bad that she (the stylist) was afraid even to shampoo it, because she feared that it would wash down the drain.

I think that blacks with naturally straight hair don't have to do nearly as much "maintenance" for growth and health. I girl I worked with was black, had naturally straight hair, and when we compared haircare tips, she was taken aback by my CO-wash, stretching and deep conditioning regimen. She'd never heard of Keracare, the baggie method or S curl for moisture. Her regimen? Suave shampoo and conditioner every three days. Her hair was down to her arse.

So I really think that the difference is the texture of average untreated black hair, which is already fragile, coupled with chemicals. Trust, that if whites and Asians and Latinas were permanently changing their hair texture as frequently as every month or month and a half, they would have some issues with growth and health as well.

 

[beyondcute]

I sort of understand what you're saying, but I guess in a way I don't, because I thought other ladies generally answered your question but you said no one's really touched on what you were getting at, soo ...

Yes, hair is made up of the same components, essentially, but for the most part, the chemical processes used by whites, Asians, etc. are far less damaging and far less frequent than the ones we relaxed ladies use. I had a white roommate in college who had a curly perm that she got "touched up" every six months, and she still complained about damage. I also think that by and large, coloring isn't as damaging as relaxing. Bleaching, yes, and people who bleach their hair often have jacked up strands. I'll never forget going to a Hair Cuttery to get a trim and falling into convo with a stylist. She was telling me that one of her longtime clients had started bleaching her hair and now it felt so bad that she (the stylist) was afraid even to shampoo it, because she feared that it would wash down the drain.

I think that blacks with naturally straight hair don't have to do nearly as much "maintenance" for growth and health. I girl I worked with was black, had naturally straight hair, and when we compared haircare tips, she was taken aback by my CO-wash, stretching and deep conditioning regimen. She'd never heard of Keracare, the baggie method or S curl for moisture. Her regimen? Suave shampoo and conditioner every three days. Her hair was down to her arse.

So I really think that the difference is the texture of average untreated black hair, which is already fragile, coupled with chemicals. Trust, that if whites and Asians and Latinas were permanently changing their hair texture as frequently as every month or month and a half, they would have some issues with growth and health as well.

I totally agree. There is no way we can do as much damage to our hair and think that it will behave like other races. Now there are some exceptions but the majority of us have a lot of combating to do if we want to (a) chemically straighten our hair (b) maybe dye our hair (c) use excessive heat on our hair. Imagine a slinky, weve all had one of those as kids.... nice and coily and springy and full of life. Then we put some denaturing chemicals on it and make the strucure weaker (breaking up some of thoise chemical bonds that make the structure sound), then we heat it up and unbend the coils that didnt get unbent in the chemical process... and at the end of the day we want it to be as strong as it was originally... Not gonna happen.)

 

[LittleMissScientist]

How is it that other races can perm, color, blowdry, and flat iron the HECK out of their hair but still have APL, or even WL hair? I know not all of them do these practices so I am speaking about the ones I do know, which is A LOT of them. We have to moisturize our hair daily, some people feel like they should protective style, avoid heat, pack on moisturizers daily, and so on. But they simply (it seems like) do not have to do much to get that long hair we are seriously fighting for.

Is our hair really that weaker than other races?? Why do we have to do so much and they don't? If hair is composed of all the same components/elements why do we have to treat our hair so differently? What makes their hair thrive during abuse but ours just deterioate (sp? I'm too lazy to look it up)?
[B

I think the reality is that we don't have to do "so much." Take careful note and it's apparent that women of any hair texture who have the longest, thickest, healthiest hair do very little in the way of maintenance and styling (Nay, Chicoro, Isis, Babyblue come to mind). Wash, deep condition, style (low or no heat) and that's pretty much it. Doesn't seem all that involved to me.

However, by limiting the scope of your post to naturally coily/kinky hair that has been relaxed, you impose a framework that does make it seem like the "answer" is that our hair is "that much weaker" and less capable of growing long without extreme effort. In that regard, your question has been answered thoroughly by other posters. The degree and kind of damage that comes from relaxing is very different than using a blowdryer every morning or coloring the hair (the most common practices among other groups).

A woman with natural coily/kinky hair who blew it dry or flat-ironed it every morning would probably have dry, damaged hair- but, IMO, it would be thicker and longer (since we are focusing on length) than if that same woman did the same thing on her relaxed hair. If you're starting from a point of greater strength, the hair can withstand more abuse. Not to say that natural hair is indestructible, it's just stronger.

Finally, I'm not sure where everyone else is, but I honestly don't see that many women with straighter/wavier hair texture that have simply stunning and beautiful hair. It may be somewhat longer on average than coily/kinky hair, but, IMO, it's out of the ordinary to see a woman of any ethnic background with very beautiful hair. No one group has a monopoly on gorgeous, "easy to grow" hair.