Something I don't understand about NO LYE relaxers...

[Neith]

Why is it said that there are calcium deposits in hair relaxed with no lye relaxers?




Firstly... DOES calcium hydroxide break down into actual calcium when exposed to air or water?

I'm no chemist, but I know that calcium and calcium hydroxide isn't the same thing.

Maybe there are some chemists or chemistry majors or just someone smarter than me knows!




Secondly... even if it DOES deposit calcium in the hair, wouldn't the use of the neutralizing/chelating shampoo (that comes with the kit) get it out? The cuticles are wide open, wouldn't it be removed?

Even if somehow the calcium wasn't removed by neutralizing... wouldn't it easily be removed by using a chelating/swimmers shampoo?




Does sodium hydroxide leave sodium deposits in the hair? If so, wouldn't you need to clarify/chelate to get that out?

 

[Determined22]

Why is it said that there are calcium deposits in hair relaxed with no lye relaxers?

Firstly... DOES calcium hydroxide break down into actual calcium when exposed to air or water?

I'm no chemist, but I know that calcium and calcium hydroxide isn't the same thing.

Maybe there are some chemists or chemistry majors or just someone smarter than me knows!

Secondly... even if it DOES deposit calcium in the hair, wouldn't the use of the neutralizing/chelating shampoo (that comes with the kit) get it out? The cuticles are wide open, wouldn't it be removed?

Even if somehow the calcium wasn't removed by neutralizing... wouldn't it easily be removed by using a chelating/swimmers shampoo?

Does sodium hydroxide leave sodium deposits in the hair? If so, wouldn't you need to clarify/chelate to get that out?

No-lye relaxers use a reaction between calcium hydroxide (CaOH) and guanidine carbonate to form guanidine hydroxide, leaving calcium carbonate as a by-product. Calcium carbonate is also known as chalk and makes up 4% of the Earth's rock. This reaction is done because guanidine hydroxide reacts in a gentler way with the hair, resulting in less irritation to the user. Yet this leaves calcium carbonate deposits on the hair, which can leave the hair dry. This is why chelating is important with no-lye relaxers.

Lye relaxers rely on sodium hydroxide to break the protein bonds within the hair. Unlike no-lye relaxers, lye relaxers don't require a chemical reaction before working on the hairshaft. Also, sodium hydroxide is much more soluble in water. Therefore, when you rinse and neutralize, you still have sodium and hydroxide ions in solution, which will be removed from the hair with rinsing and neutralizing.

There are some kits out there with chelating shampoos, like the ORS relaxer kit that comes with the creamy aloe shampoo. However, if a person has been using no-lye relaxers for an extended period of time, the chelating shampoo may not be able to remove all mineral deposits with one wash. Repeated washes over a period of time may be necessary to remove all mineral deposits from the hair.

 

[bbdgirl]

I'll tell you one thing; I have been using ORS Creamy aloe shampoo for the past 8 months and my hair has never been shinier or more moist. I also switched away from the no-lye last month relaxed after a 3 month stretch. I have tosay that the hair that was relaxed with lithium hydroxide is shiny and soft and frankly looks like doll's hair, but then again that could also be because this is the newest hair.

 

[Neith]

No-lye relaxers use a reaction between calcium hydroxide (CaOH) and guanidine carbonate to form guanidine hydroxide, leaving calcium carbonate as a by-product. Calcium carbonate is also known as chalk and makes up 4% of the Earth's rock. This reaction is done because guanidine hydroxide reacts in a gentler way with the hair, resulting in less irritation to the user. Yet this leaves calcium carbonate deposits on the hair, which can leave the hair dry. This is why chelating is important with no-lye relaxers.

Lye relaxers rely on sodium hydroxide to break the protein bonds within the hair. Unlike no-lye relaxers, lye relaxers don't require a chemical reaction before working on the hairshaft. Also, sodium hydroxide is much more soluble in water. Therefore, when you rinse and neutralize, you still have sodium and hydroxide ions in solution, which will be removed from the hair with rinsing and neutralizing.

There are some kits out there with chelating shampoos, like the ORS relaxer kit that comes with the creamy aloe shampoo. However, if a person has been using no-lye relaxers for an extended period of time, the chelating shampoo may not be able to remove all mineral deposits with one wash. Repeated washes over a period of time may be necessary to remove all mineral deposits from the hair.

Yay! Good answer

So your hair should definitely be fine with neutralizing and chelating on the day of relaxer... with regular chelating (instead of clarifying) every month or so.


Another question:

Why would sodium be easier to remove than calcium?

Sodium is a metal, isn't it? Is it just because it's more soluble in water? Because of the sodium ion's charge?

Again, I'm SO not a chemist

 

[Neith]

I'll tell you one thing; I have been using ORS Creamy aloe shampoo for the past 8 months and my hair has never been shinier or more moist. I also switched away from the no-lye last month relaxed after a 3 month stretch. I have tosay that the hair that was relaxed with lithium hydroxide is shiny and soft and frankly looks like doll's hair, but then again that could also be because this is the newest hair.

I do love this shampoo. I use it monthly

 

[Determined22]

Yay! Good answer

So your hair should definitely be fine with neutralizing and chelating on the day of relaxer... with regular chelating (instead of clarifying) every month or so.


Another question:

Why would sodium be easier to remove than calcium?

Sodium is a metal, isn't it? Is it just because it's more soluble in water? Because of the sodium ion's charge?

Again, I'm SO not a chemist

Ok, think of it this way:

You know when you have salt (sodium chloride - NaCl) and dissolve it in water, the bonds holding the sodium and the chloride break apart, so what you really have is sodium ions and chloride ions floating around in the water. That's what happens when you have sodium hydroxide in water, the sodium ions and hydroxide ions aren't connected anymore and float around. Plus sodium ions are relatively small compared to other molecules.

Now think about calcium carbonate. First, its a much larger molecule than sodium hydroxide, because carbonate is CO^3, meaning 1 carbon atom and three oxygen atoms. When you put calcium carbonate in water, it doesn't dissolve well, so the entire molecule wants to stay together. That's why you get the buildup on your hair, because the calcium carbonate isn't attracted to the water, it would rather stay on your hair. And that's why you need to chelate, because chelating is a process which binds molecules to the metals so that they can be removed.

Sodium is an alkali metal, but its much smaller than calcium. But the real reason why you don't need to chelate after using a lye relaxer goes back to the fact that no-lye relaxers use a secondary reaction which leaves calcium carbonate as a by-product, and calcium carbonate is not very soluble in water.

 

[gymfreak336]

Ok, think of it this way:

You know when you have salt (sodium chloride - NaCl) and dissolve it in water, the bonds holding the sodium and the chloride break apart, so what you really have is sodium ions and chloride ions floating around in the water. That's what happens when you have sodium hydroxide in water, the sodium ions and hydroxide ions aren't connected anymore and float around. Plus sodium ions are relatively small compared to other molecules.

Now think about calcium carbonate. First, its a much larger molecule than sodium hydroxide, because carbonate is CO^3, meaning 1 carbon atom and three oxygen atoms. When you put calcium carbonate in water, it doesn't dissolve well, so the entire molecule wants to stay together. That's why you get the buildup on your hair, because the calcium carbonate isn't attracted to the water, it would rather stay on your hair. And that's why you need to chelate, because chelating is a process which binds molecules to the metals so that they can be removed.

Sodium is an alkali metal, but its much smaller than calcium. But the real reason why you don't need to chelate after using a lye relaxer goes back to the fact that no-lye relaxers use a secondary reaction which leaves calcium carbonate as a by-product, and calcium carbonate is not very soluble in water.

Thanks Determined22 for just a detailed answer. As to the bolded....I didn't know that. I totally didn't think about that, I always thought just about the molecule size.

 

[ladylibra]

okay i'm disappointed, i wanted to sound smart but Determined22 beat me to the answer already...

way to break it down girl!

 

[Determined22]

Thanks Determined22 for just a detailed answer. As to the bolded....I didn't know that. I totally didn't think about that, I always thought just about the molecule size.

Thanks girl! I was hoping you were gonna come in here!

okay i'm disappointed, i wanted to sound smart but Determined22 beat me to the answer already...

way to break it down girl!

Thanks chica!

 

[Neith]

Yep, great explanations Thanks a lot!

 

[gymfreak336]

Thanks girl! I was hoping you were gonna come in here!



Thanks chica!

You know I got a spidey sense for a science thread

You actually just helped me figure out a problem I had in a titration I did before

 

[Determined22]

You know I got a spidey sense for a science thread

You actually just helped me figure out a problem I had in a titration I did before

I saw it and thought "gymfreak hasn't been in here yet?"

Ugh...titrations...I haven't done one of those since college.

 

[gymfreak336]

I saw it and thought "gymfreak hasn't been in here yet?"

Ugh...titrations...I haven't done one of those since college.

I was in class eariler but I am glad you came in. You gave a better explanation with more detail than I could.

Yeah, titrations

Ya know, I actually need to talk with you. I am trying to run an experiement on some hair products. Ya know how people were like nono: about DMDM hydantoin and its use in hair products. Well, to prove that it doesn't release lots of formaldehyde and that the amount is really insignifcant, I was going to take samples of conditoners with it, heat them up to maybe 3-4 different degrees (all comparable with the heat from a dryer) and then test them for the level of formaldehyde released.

I just can't figure out how to set the experiment up. Like I think I would probably have to use mass spec and NMR at some point but what else?

 

[twinkee1999]

Does this apply to Phyto as well? My stylist is always saying how different Phyto relaxers are.

 

[Determined22]

I was in class eariler but I am glad you came in. You gave a better explanation with more detail than I could.

Yeah, titrations

Ya know, I actually need to talk with you. I am trying to run an experiement on some hair products. Ya know how people were like nono: about DMDM hydantoin and its use in hair products. Well, to prove that it doesn't release lots of formaldehyde and that the amount is really insignifcant, I was going to take samples of conditoners with it, heat them up to maybe 3-4 different degrees (all comparable with the heat from a dryer) and then test them for the level of formaldehyde released.

I just can't figure out how to set the experiment up. Like I think I would probably have to use mass spec and NMR at some point but what else?

That sounds like a great experiment. Are you doing it as an independent study for school? If not, you should. Then you could use the school's resources/labs and get credit for it.

So the goal is to look for formaldehyde release as a function of temperature? Definitely GC-MS, you could do NMR if you can isolate the formaldehyde through chromatography or some other separation technique.

 

[gymfreak336]

That sounds like a great experiment. Are you doing it as an independent study for school? If not, you should. Then you could use the school's resources/labs and get credit for it.

So the goal is to look for formaldehyde release as a function of temperature? Definitely GC-MS, you could do NMR if you can isolate the formaldehyde through chromatography or some other separation technique.

I had been thinking about it but I haven't really ran it by anybody. I know the guy that runs the NMR lab so I might check with him.

Yep, thats the goal. Thanks for your suggestions. I'll right it up and run it by you before I do it, that is if I get permission.

 

[DDTexlaxed]

Does that mean lye is better than no lye? I'm definitely confused and looking for education before my next TU.

 

[Determined22]

I had been thinking about it but I haven't really ran it by anybody. I know the guy that runs the NMR lab so I might check with him.

Yep, thats the goal. Thanks for your suggestions. I'll right it up and run it by you before I do it, that is if I get permission.

Good idea! I really think you should check on making it an independent study...if you're gonna do the work you should get the credit! And if you decide to go to grad school, having the experience of designing your own experiment and executing it all on your own would make you a desirable candidate.

 

[Determined22]

Does that mean lye is better than no lye? I'm definitely confused and looking for education before my next TU.

I think its one of those things where you have to decide for yourself. If you are a DIY'er or on a tight budget, getting a no-lye box kit and then just chelating more often might be a better option. I personally like how my hair behaves and feels after a lye relaxer, so that's what I use.

 

[gymfreak336]

Good idea! I really think you should check on making it an independent study...if you're gonna do the work you should get the credit! And if you decide to go to grad school, having the experience of designing your own experiment and executing it all on your own would make you a desirable candidate.

I didn't even think about that.