Relaxed hair holds moisture better than Natural hair?

I just wanted to add that cuticles don't swell, the cortex of the hair does which causes pressure against the cuticles = cuticles lifting. This type of "damage" can be cause by different things such as water as well as relaxers.

I don't think its possible to reverse this change . The purpose of neutralizing after a relaxer is to "diffuse" the relaxer and/or return the hair back to it an acidic state.
 
Nonie, I didn't say the cuticle, I said the hair. This is what I received from a chemical engineer awhile ago when I had an issue with my hair. He explained it to me like this -

For low pH, you seal the hair. If it is extremely low pH you are swelling the hair in some cases above 100% of normal volume. On the molecular level, you are reorienting the hydrogen bonding(reversible process) The net results are limp and tangled hair. At low pH, the cuticle is sealed then becomes raised due to the extreme swelling, hair becomes frizzy and limp due to disorientation of the (alpha) keratin protein structure.[This is what happened to my hair when I used a product with a pH of 3. However, he also told me that this is likely due to the fact that I'm LP, someone with a higher porosity may not have had such a strong reaction.]

For high pH, you are opening the cuticles. On the molecular level, you are breaking the disulfide bonds (irreversible process). The net result before conditioning is limp and tangled hair.
Click to expand...

So I guess it's what both of us said - the hair swells and the keratin is damaged.
 
Nonie said:
EllePixie I know that about NH's researches and I respect that. But if you look at my posts, I cited many more to support my thinking than she did to support that one theory you agree with. A pH below 3 can damage the hair...so to me a pH that isn't close to the damaging kind seems to be safest for hair. Particularly when you consider that hair pH is 4.5-5.5. Why would one have to go below the NORMAL state of hair to close cuticles. That would mean cuticles are always open??? :look: But we know that's not the case. So that's another reason I think that theory is crazy.

I might just do the experiment the science project proposed in one of the links just for my own satisfaction. That there is a "conclusion" that is provided as being what students should expect would mean it's been tested. And that there are more scientists that seem to echo my sentiments about MILD ACID being what smooths hair makes me think that NH's scientist was wrong this time.

About the bold, I don't think a low pH swells cuticles; it just breaks down the keratin.
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To the bold: Can't that be the case for high porosity people? Because if their cuticle was simply damaged, pH balancing treatments wouldn't do anything for them. If your cuticle "stayed" in one place when you use certain products, wouldn't you need to constantly be balancing your pH if you raise or lower it? I know that I do not always follow up a more alkaline treatment with any kind of acidic (mild or stronger), and my hair returns to its normal behavior. Wouldn't your natural porosity be a moot point if it were as easy as balancing pH with products?
 
I dont understand the correlation between moisture and straightening either...
I dont moisturize my hair before straightening or necessarily DC each time and dont have any issues getting it straight in one pass. (I do a pre-poo though??)
Not sure i follow the question:(
 
EllePixie said:
To the bold: Can't that be the case for high porosity people? Because if their cuticle was simply damaged, pH balancing treatments wouldn't do anything for them. If your cuticle "stayed" in one place when you use certain products, wouldn't you need to constantly be balancing your pH if you raise or lower it? I know that I do not always follow up a more alkaline treatment with any kind of acidic (mild or stronger), and my hair returns to its normal behavior. Wouldn't your natural porosity be a moot point if it were as easy as balancing pH with products?
Click to expand...

EllePixie True what you say, high porosity people do have a raised cuticle (I forgot about that) but we already established that low pH is damaging, and that to me would be anything below 4.

I don't think Roux Porosity Control pH is below 4 (but I'll stand corrected if it is) which is why I'm saying it's an oxymoron to dispute those of use who believe a mild acid (around the pH of hair 4-5) does close cuticles and to say that only products below 4 would affect the cuticle in anyway because the only effect that would be would be destroy the hair as you and the engineer have explained.

In other words, I am saying the scientist who said that hair cannot be smoothed out by flattening of cuticles using a product with pHs above 4 needs to go back to the drawing board coz his statement basically says all the products out there that are not in that dangerous zone (below pH 4) are just placebos and those of us who actually see a difference in using them have vivid imaginations coz none of them would change the porosity of hair, according to him/her.
 
Nonie said:
@Smiley82 and those who say their relaxed hair holds moisture better than natural did, are you using the same products relaxed as you did natural?

When I joined the forum, I got my staples not from natural folks but from relaxed folks. I, of course, first looked to natural 4B folks for direction when I joined. But in a short while it became clear that all the products most of them used did not agree with me. Starting from the grease my mom used, to CON shampoo that everyone raved about, to Castille Soap, Shea Butter, all butters, MyHoneyChild...The list is endless. I even tried Vatika Oil, Olive Oil, Castor Oil...and I can't think what else. I have a friend who was sending me products she loved, but I hated them all...except for S Curl.

It was relaxed folks who pointed me to products that my hair liked and which I have been using for the last 7 years. I learned about S Curl, Aubrey Organics, NTM, Aussie Moist, Trader Joe's...from relaxed folks. So I do wonder if sometimes it is the products we naturals use that make our hair feel dry. It seemed all the products naturals liked were good only on application but left my hair thirsting for more of something. Come to think of it, I even got the regimen I use to this day on from Brenda, whom if I'm not mistaken is relaxed.:grin:

So I do wonder if it couldn't be the products. I say that because even though I have 4B hair, I stopped using leave-ins in 2001 when I was relaxed and starting my transitioning. I am now natural and still go bare, except if I need to comb my hair--or on those days when I consider the pros in coating my hair to protect when I might apply something but I almost can't wait to wash it off.

Another thing to consider that might explain why straight hair may seem more moist is sebum does travel down straight hair easier than it does kinky hair, so that might explain the dryness you might have witnessed in natural hair. I fix that issue by baggying every night, which causes a sort of steaming effect and traps any sebum that might be produced forcing it to condense back on hair when I do this every night. I mean, how else can one explain how my hair gets softer and softer with subsequent baggying when I'm not apply any more moisture?
Click to expand...

Thanks for the response. However, all natural hair is not created equal. One person's 4b is not going to be exactly the same as another's. Trust me, after 8 years natural, I tried it all. True, some products worked better than others... but it didn't change the fact that my hair was/is a moisture eater lol. Please don't mistake me for someone who is afraid of or doesn't understand kinky hair. My hair was was abnormally dry. I knew this for a fact because I had to deal with it and I also knew other naturals with similar hair types for comparison. However, over the years I learned that I would simply have to keep it moisturized on a (very lol) regular basis. In the end, my hair's dryness was not the ultimate reason why I texlaxed. In fact, I had no idea that my hair would hold moisture better as a texlaxer. It was a happy surprise :yep:
 
This may be OT but, I'm relaxed and I feel the following happens:

1) My hair holds moisture better throughout the week after using heat (be it flat iron or roller set)

2) I have some under processed areas that seems to remain coarse and dry and doesn't accept moisture well when I air dry. However, it accepts moisture very nicely when using heat

Why would that be?
 
Smiley82 said:
Thanks for the response. However, all natural hair is not created equal. One person's 4b is not going to be exactly the same as another's. Trust me, after 8 years natural, I tried it all. True, some products worked better than others... but it didn't change the fact that my hair was/is a moisture eater lol. Please don't mistake me for someone who is afraid of or doesn't understand kinky hair. My hair was was abnormally dry. I knew this for a fact because I had to deal with it and I also knew other naturals with similar hair types for comparison. However, over the years I learned that I would simply have to keep it moisturized on a (very lol) regular basis. In the end, my hair's dryness was not the ultimate reason why I texlaxed. In fact, I had no idea that my hair would hold moisture better as a texlaxer. It was a happy surprise :yep:
Click to expand...

Smiley82, I wasn't making any assumptions about you. I just wondered if the same products were involved in your "experiment". I am not suggesting that everyone has the same hair either, hence my question. I just shared my experience to explain the thinking behind my question.

Another thing that led me to ask that question is I have gotten quite a number of people on the forum and real life to discover that their hair isn't as dry as they thought, simply by a change in products and maybe introducing baggying. So I was curious if perhaps you were on the "natural products wagon" before and have now moved to "relaxed products wagon" and hence the difference. If not, I appreciate your participation. That's all I wondered. And like I said, it'd make sense for the world's best moisturizer (sebum) to travel down straighter hair more easily than it does kinky hair so it's not farfetched for relaxed hair to feel moisturized better if all other conditions are kept constant. I was just wondering if all other conditions were kept constant. That's all.
 
divachyk said:
This may be OT but, I'm relaxed and I feel the following happens:

1) My hair holds moisture better throughout the week after using heat (be it flat iron or roller set)

2) I have some under processed areas that seems to remain coarse and dry and doesn't accept moisture well when I air dry. However, it accepts moisture very nicely when using heat

Why would that be?
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divachyk TheNaturalHaven IIRC found that heat can raise the cuticle--which explains why people DC with heat, but that cold doesn't affect it in any way--so perhaps you have non-porous hair that needs heat for moisture to be able to penetrate it.

And if @EllePixie is right that some relaxed hair has raised cuticle--which I also can see if a neutralizer that is used doesn't have a low enough pH--then your relaxed hair may be more open to receive moisture.

And now that I think about it, perhaps that explains @Smiley82's experience. Perhaps her cuticle is so tight that relaxing provides just the ample porosity for moisture to penetrate. :scratchch
 
Nonie said:
Smiley82, I wasn't making any assumptions about you. I just wondered if the same products were involved in your "experiment". I am not suggesting that everyone has the same hair either, hence my question. I just shared my experience to explain the thinking behind my question.

Another thing that led me to ask that question is I have gotten quite a number of people on the forum and real life to discover that their hair isn't as dry as they thought, simply by a change in products and maybe introducing baggying. So I was curious if perhaps you were on the "natural products wagon" before and have now moved to "relaxed products wagon" and hence the difference. If not, I appreciate your participation. That's all I wondered. And like I said, it'd make sense for the world's best moisturizer (sebum) to travel down straighter hair more easily than it does kinky hair so it's not farfetched for relaxed hair to feel moisturized better if all other conditions are kept constant. I was just wondering if all other conditions were kept constant. That's all.
Click to expand...

When I was natural, I tried it all. natural & relaxed products. However, now that I'm texlaxed, I tend to use more typically natural products lol. Go figure. My hair is lightly texlaxed and I still have curls, kinks and frizziness to maintain. So I'm finding that natural products work well.
 
vkb247 said:
I just wanted to add that cuticles don't swell, the cortex of the hair does which causes pressure against the cuticles = cuticles lifting. This type of "damage" can be cause by different things such as water as well as relaxers.

I don't think its possible to reverse this change . The purpose of neutralizing after a relaxer is to "diffuse" the relaxer and/or return the hair back to it an acidic state.
Click to expand...

vkb247 that has always been my understanding and hence my without doubt whatsoever assumption that neutralizer were acidic and were for the purpose of returning hair whose cuticle had been raised, back to the state they were before the cuticle was raised. Without even knowing when the product was used, I would have guessed just from the name because in Chemistry we learned that the mixing of a acid and a base (alkali) to form a salt and water was called neutralization. I also know on the pH scale, 7 which falls between acids and bases is called Neutral and that the lower you went down in numbers, the more you acidified something and vice versa...so before I knew the pH of hair is acidic, I always assumed that a neutralizer made hair neutral and that that was the "normal" state. I never questioned or doubted that neutralizers were supposed to make something that was alkaline more acidic--even if it meant stopping at neutral.
 
Smiley82 said:
When I was natural, I tried it all. natural & relaxed products. However, now that I'm texlaxed, I tend to use more typically natural products lol. Go figure. My hair is lightly texlaxed and I still have curls, kinks and frizziness to maintain. So I'm finding that natural products work well.
Click to expand...

Smiley82 What do you mean by more natural products?
 
I don't think it's a moisture thing, but a TEXTURE thing. Relaxers not only straighten, but they degrade the cuticle enough to give a "silkier" looking texture, which is why relaxed hair usually looks shinier. Don't confuse the shine with actual moisture the hair is holding, though. Natural hair that is relatively coarse in texture doesn't have the same sheen as relaxed hair usually, but it could still be moisturized.
 
Nonie said:
Smiley82 What do you mean by more natural products?
Click to expand...

Products that are marketed to or more popular with natural heads and also naturally homemade products. I make my own leave-in. I tried this same leave-in when I was natural, but it works better now on my texlaxed hair.
 
Nonie said:
EllePixie True what you say, high porosity people do have a raised cuticle (I forgot about that) but we already established that low pH is damaging, and that to me would be anything below 4.

I don't think Roux Porosity Control pH is below 4 (but I'll stand corrected if it is) which is why I'm saying it's an oxymoron to dispute those of use who believe a mild acid (around the pH of hair 4-5) does close cuticles and to say that only products below 4 would affect the cuticle in anyway because the only effect that would be would be destroy the hair as you and the engineer have explained.

In other words, I am saying the scientist who said that hair cannot be smoothed out by flattening of cuticles using a product with pHs above 4 needs to go back to the drawing board coz his statement basically says all the products out there that are not in that dangerous zone (below pH 4) are just placebos and those of us who actually see a difference in using them have vivid imaginations coz none of them would change the porosity of hair, according to him/her.
Click to expand...

LOL at the bolded. Nonie, all I'm saying is that I don't think either hypothesis is as simple as a study or generalization, or all about pH, which is also why I question the effectiveness of neutralizers - I think it has to do more with the individual's hair to begin with (the porosity, health of hair, texture - coarse vs. fine, etc). I believe Porosity Control (for the record, I've never used PC so I can't testify) has a pH of 4.5, but what about Joico Hydrator, which has a pH of 3.5? That product is also raved about on this board, and that's in your danger zone. I've even used that and surprisingly, nothing bad happened to my hair (Even though it wasn't awesome, and I need to be VERY careful when using a product like this due to the pH and protein - most likely best for me to steam with).

I may side with NH, but that's because that's also been my personal experience, but I'm not saying your experience is wrong, or anyone else's.
 
EllePixie said:
LOL at the bolded. @Nonie, all I'm saying is that I don't think either hypothesis is as simple as a study or generalization, or all about pH, which is also why I question the effectiveness of neutralizers - I think it has to do more with the individual's hair to begin with (the porosity, health of hair, texture - coarse vs. fine, etc). I believe Porosity Control (for the record, I've never used PC so I can't testify) has a pH of 4.5, but what about Joico Hydrator, which has a pH of 3.5? That product is also raved about on this board, and that's in your danger zone. I've even used that and surprisingly, nothing bad happened to my hair (Even though it wasn't awesome, and I need to be VERY careful when using a product like this due to the pH and protein - most likely best for me to steam with).

I may side with NH, but that's because that's also been my personal experience, but I'm not saying your experience is wrong, or anyone else's.
Click to expand...

EllePixie From what I've read, dangerous pH's are below pH 3 so 3.5 isn't damaging per se. I just personally wouldn't use it coz it's too close to the danger zone. pH of vinegar can be as low as 2.4, yet I do use it, but if you notice in my posts, I've warned people about it saying you have to go as dilute as you can possibly go. My favorite phrase is, even a drop is better than none because it will add H ions and make the aqueous solution a touch acidic.

Because vinegar is so strong, I do know people have had bad results but when I hear some of the concentrations they were using, like a tablespoon in a cup, I'm not surprised. The more you dilute it, the higher the pH so I choose to play it as safe as possible by mixing 1/4 cup in 2 gallons of water. :yep:

So back to my point, my dispute with that dude/chick who made that "nothing happens to cuticles within the 4-8 pH" statement is not right no matter how you look at it, because while it is true a pH of 3.5 can close cuticles (which agrees with him) and which I myself agree with and that above 8 can lift them, that wide range in which he says nothing happens covers a lot of products that work well for people and change porosity. Roux is made SPECIFICALLY to improve porosity, and yet it has a pH within the range s/he says is useless. That to me is proof s/he's lunching.

So regardless of the fact that everyone's hair is different, a fact anyone with a brain knows, to say that cuticles don't lift or flatten between a pH of 4-8 is comical to me, when the proof is in the pudding from all positive reviews and scientific reports to prove otherwise. That's all I've been saying. That it is not true.
 
Why, Nonie, are you implying that I have a lack of brain function? :rofl: This may be where the disconnect lies - you say that it is not true that nothing happens between a pH between 4-8(9). This is not the takeaway I got from the initial scientific findings, because I took significance factor into account, meaning that the difference is not significant enough to reject the hypothesis. I'm sure you're familiar.

If what you say is true, then wouldn't water alone, with a pH of 7, correct low porosity issues? I can tell you first hand that it does not. Can you explain that?
 
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Oh, well I was going to say I notice a difference in moisture retention when I upgraded from solia to croc 2 flat iron so maybe it has a lot to do with the kind of metals your flat iron uses... ( I know croc is built to hold in moisture) .......but seems the other ladies probably will find the better answer lol
 
divachyk said:
This may be OT but, I'm relaxed and I feel the following happens:

1) My hair holds moisture better throughout the week after using heat (be it flat iron or roller set)

2) I have some under processed areas that seems to remain coarse and dry and doesn't accept moisture well when I air dry. However, it accepts moisture very nicely when using heat

Why would that be?
Click to expand...

My hair reacts the same way. My hair stays much more moisturized when I either do a rollerset or dry my braidout under a hood dryer. It's very difficult to keep my air-dried hair moisturized. I have to literally re-wet it with a spray moisturizer or water.

SN: I always thought that natural hair retained moisture well on the basis that it takes longer for natural hair to air-dry than it does for relaxed hair.

Nonie & EllePixie - excellent posts!
 
EllePixie said:
Why, @Nonie, are you implying that I have a lack of brain function? :rofl: This may be where the disconnect lies - you say that it is not true that nothing happens between a pH between 4-8(9). This is not the takeaway I got from the initial scientific findings, because I took significance factor into account, meaning that the difference is not significant enough to reject the hypothesis. I'm sure you're familiar.

If what you say is true, then wouldn't water alone, with a pH of 7, correct low porosity issues? I can tell you first hand that it does not. Can you explain that?
Click to expand...

@EllePixie, you're reaching with that first line. If you didn't have a brain, you wouldn't know what I was saying that only someone with half a brain wouldn't know that. You stated something that I think everyone knows so I was stating that you and everyone knows that (everyone's hair is different), and only one w/ low brain function might not know that. So not sure how you deciphered that to mean I said you didn't have brain function. :perplexed

Your statement in boldface made me look back at the references NH uses in her argument and you are right. :yep: So it seems it's NH who deciphered the point I'm arguing against, and not really that scientist or rather scientists as now I'm paying attention and I see there are more than one.

I will quote the points that I've been arguing against, particularly the second one which is what got me to start the debate indirectly with NH. In her Q&A section she gives the following answers to the questions:

Q3: Are you really saying that hydrochloric acid and sodium hydroxide really do not affect hair?

In the range of pH 4 to 9 yes, there is not much change to hair. In fact soaking hair in water (yep plain ole water) for a long time (circa 10 minutes is long) actually yields greater change to the step height (see above) than acid or base.
Click to expand...
And

Q: Does apple cider vinegar help to ‘close’ the cuticle?

There is no evidence to support that pH (i.e low pH of ACV) can affect the hair cuticle in this way. High pH (9 and over) found during relaxing can raise the cuticle and even destroy the hair completely (J Invest Dermatol 105: 96-99, 1995). This study did also show that hair did not show any real change, meaning the cuticle was not raised or smoothened by exposure to a large range of pH values (about pH 4 to 8).
Click to expand...
Compare that with what the scientists said:

1. Hair does not absorb noticeable amounts of acid or base between pH 4-10 ( J Soc Cosmet Chem, pp 393-405, 1981)
2. The cuticle separation distance is within the same range between pH 4 -9 (J Invest Dermatol 105: pp96-99, 1995)
Click to expand...
Hair not absorbing something doesn't mean it isn't affected by it. Also note, it doesn't say there's NO absorption. It says the amounts are not noticeable which could be relative depending on what we are calling noticeable. (Is "to the point of breaking disulphide bonds" what is considered noticeable since that's when the structure of the strand changes so we notice a change--or is "to the point of damage by a concentrated acid" the noticeable point again because damage is very noticeable?). And the second point says the separation is within the same range. A range has a high point and a low point. That's why it's a range, so there's opening and closing but perhaps not to the point of damage or affecting the overall structure of the strand.

So it's all been a matter of interpretation. I do apologize for thinking you were speaking from NH's point of view--which is what I assumed. I see now you were speaking from the scientists' point of view which I have no problem with now that I've paid attention to what it is exactly I said. I humbly apologize to the scientists for attributing NH's interpretation to them. I do not dispute what they say at all coz I concur with it. It's the answers NH gives above that I've been thinking all along were the scientists.

In answering your question whether I think water would correct the low porosity, no, I personally would never think water would; not pure water anyway whose pH is 7 because it has an equal amount of OH- as H+ ions hence the neutrality. If a product has more H+ than OH- ions, then it is acidic and has a pH under 7; if it's the opposite, then it's alkaline and has a pH of over 7. It is products that are acidic or alkaline that close or open cuticles respectively within a safe range (pH 4-9) or to the point of damage if you go closer to the ends of the spectrum ie pH 1 or pH 14. While we're on the topic of correcting low porosity, I think an alkaline one would be the one to do the trick since low porosity means tight cuticles that make it hard to moisturize...so a pH to raise the cuticles would be the ticket. I am not sure but I'm guessing what prompted your question was the fact that 7 falls within that range, but I believe everyone assumes that everyone knows that 7 is neither acid nor alkaline. The pH scale is continuous though, so that moving from 1 to 14 is the direction of increasing alkalinity (increase in OH- ions) and from 14 to 1 is the direction of decreasing acidity (increase in H+ ions). So if we wanted to be technical we could saying going to 7 can be considered getting more acidic or alkaline depending on what side of the spectrum you were approaching it from. But while you're on the 7 you're neither acidic nor alkaline.

It's like you can be considered to be getting fatter or getting thinner depending on which side of your ideal body you are approaching it, but while at your idea body, you're neither fat nor thin.

BTW, I just realized that the link I posted to my discussion with thenaturalhairproject didn't work. I have just fixed it. I now see why EllePixie linked to NH's site coz she didn't realize I just had posted a post going to it. :drunk: I've just fixed the link in the post so here's the post again with the corrected link if anyone is interested. My apologies guys.
 
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Nonie...regarding my first line - I was being facetious, hence my rotfl smiley. Come on, did you think we needed to come to e-blows over pH? ;)

TBH I read that post by NH a long time ago, and I just kept saying her b/c it was on her site. I was really only reading the quotes above from the science journals, so my apologies for not making that clear.

I agree with the rest of your post and yes, soft alkalines are a LP gal's best friend.
 
EllePixie said:
@Nonie...regarding my first line - I was being facetious, hence my rotfl smiley. Come on, did you think we needed to come to e-blows over pH? ;)

TBH I read that post by NH a long time ago, and I just kept saying her b/c it was on her site. I was really only reading the quotes above from the science journals, so my apologies for not making that clear.

I agree with the rest of your post and yes, soft alkalines are a LP gal's best friend.
Click to expand...


EllePixie I didn't think you were being serious because you laughed, but I didn't want to not explain myself in case I was wrong in assuming you were just being funny. Plus there are so many people reading this who might not know you have a sense of humor or I can be cheeky who might actually have thought I had implied you had no brain; so just wanted to make it clear to be safe. ;)

No apology necessary. It was an honest misunderstanding on both our parts.
 
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