Please Help This Natural

I agree with @discodumpling in that the wash-DC routine should be the foundation of it all and the main source of all moisture. If the DC is on point, there's no need to moisturize daily/often. I understand your despair, but don't give up. It seems as if you've tried many techniques and products to address the issue, which is good. However, may I suggest that you begin again by examining all of your techniques and products' ingredient lists in order to pinpoint the things that your hair likes and dislikes. This may seem like a tedious task, but I promise that the information gleaned will prove beneficial. Let's start with your hair's base characteristics and go from there, e.g., porosity level, thickness/thinness, density, curl pattern, etc. Next, let's look at the products that you use to wash, DC and moisturize with. What are they? What are their ingredient lists? How do they behave on your hair? How does your hair behave after sbort-term and long-term usage? What are the methods/techniques that produced the best outcomes on your hair? What does your hair look and feel like after cleansing and DCing? What does it look and feel like bare without any product on it? Let's get the answers to these questions and go forward step-by-step. I promise I won't leave you hanging; we'll figure this thing out one way or another. Deal?
@PJaye Deal lol. For shampoo I use faith in nature jojoba shampoo is SLS free but has ALS which is slightly milder, before that I used Giovanni 50/50 both feels the same to me afterwards tbh sometimes I use Dr Bronners almond liquid soap. Next I use Giovanni smooth as silk deeper moisture conditioner or triple treat. Apply my leavin Jane carter revitalizing leave in spray or just water then my whipped shea butter mix which also contains avocado butter, aloe butter and a natural conditioner (either Giovanni, faith in nature conditioner or giovanni direct leave in) all mixed in together or use my norish and shine instead or both to seal & then detangle. But lately I've been waiting until my hair is 90-95% dry, before I detangle then I braid. LOC method as needed, braid every night. Thank you so much

Faith in nature jojoba shampoo ingredients list

Aqua, Ammonium laureth sulfate, Maris sal, Polysorbate 20, Simmondsia chinensis seed oil, Panthenol, Citrus aurantium dulcis peel oil, Cananga odorata flower oil, Melaleuca alternifolia leaf oil, Ascophyllum nodosum powder, Potassium sorbate, Sodium benzoate, Citric acid, Limonene
 
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@PJaye Deal lol. For shampoo I use faith in nature jojoba shampoo is SLS free but has ALS which is slightly milder, before that I used Giovanni 50/50 both feels the same to me afterwards tbh sometimes I use Dr Bronners almond liquid soap. Next I use Giovanni smooth as silk deeper moisture conditioner or triple treat. Apply my leavin Jane carter revitalizing leave in spray or just water then my whipped shea butter mix which also contains avocado butter, aloe butter and a natural conditioner (either Giovanni, faith in nature conditioner or giovanni direct leave in) all mixed in together or use my norish and shine instead or both to seal & then detangle. But lately I've been waiting until my hair is 90-95% dry, before I detangle then I braid. LOC method as needed, braid every night. Thank you so much

Faith in nature jojoba shampoo ingredients list

Aqua, Ammonium laureth sulfate, Maris sal, Polysorbate 20, Simmondsia chinensis seed oil, Panthenol, Citrus aurantium dulcis peel oil, Cananga odorata flower oil, Melaleuca alternifolia leaf oil, Ascophyllum nodosum powder, Potassium sorbate, Sodium benzoate, Citric acid, Limonene

Cool beans, now we can get started figuring things out! I have about 89 more questions, so bear with me. How does your hair look and feel after you use each of those products? Does it feel juicy and springy, soft or rigid, shiny or dull, smooth and slick or rough, or just...blah? Is it easier to manipulate your hair while it's dry, wet or damp (I'm assuming that you mean dry as in no longer wet as opposed to dry as in lacking moisture)? How long does it take for your hair to become fully saturated with water? How long does it take to become fully dry if you're air drying? Do the products you put on it (especially the conditioners) sink into your hair, or seem to just sit on top as if it's waiting for an invitation to absorb? Are the Giovanni conditioners the only things you use to DC?
 
Not to add too many additional questions, but how are you drying your hair before braiding?

How does your hair feel while you apply that whipped shea butter mix and after you apply it? That sounds like a heavy mix. (this may be similar to PJaye's question)
 
Not to add too many additional questions, but how are you drying your hair before braiding?

How does your hair feel while you apply that whipped shea butter mix and after you apply it? That sounds like a heavy mix. (this may be similar to PJaye's question)
@uofmpanther lol no problem. I always air dry my hair but I air dry it loose. Tbh all the products I've used all feel the same to me non really has stood out except maybe the norish and shine
 
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Cool beans, now we can get started figuring things out! I have about 89 more questions, so bear with me. How does your hair look and feel after you use each of those products? Does it feel juicy and springy, soft or rigid, shiny or dull, smooth and slick or rough, or just...blah? Is it easier to manipulate your hair while it's dry, wet or damp (I'm assuming that you mean dry as in no longer wet as opposed to dry as in lacking moisture)? How long does it take for your hair to become fully saturated with water? How long does it take to become fully dry if you're air drying? Do the products you put on it (especially the conditioners) sink into your hair, or seem to just sit on top as if it's waiting for an invitation to absorb? Are the Giovanni conditioners the only things you use to DC?
@PJaye tbh non of the products I've used has ever made my hair feel like butter, they've all basically felt the same, ie my hair still tangles and product is sitting on top. It seem like nothing absorbs no mater what I've used. Yes I never detangle dry hair ever I always make sure I use a leave in first be it conditioner or oil. But it is easier for me to detangle when my hair is dry. I guess my hair feels soft and springy after using products. Defo not juicy lol. My hair dries pretty quick well between 2-3 hours but I assume that is because my hair is short & loose. Yes I've mainly used Giovanni conditioners and Shea moisture because I am vegan you see & will only use products that have not been tested on animals so my choice is pretty limited plus I live in the UK. Thank you for your help & questions I really appreciate it sister x
 
@PJaye tbh non of the products I've used has ever made my hair feel like butter, they've all basically felt the same, ie my hair still tangles and product is sitting on top. It seem like nothing absorbs no mater what I've used. Yes I never detangle dry hair ever I always make sure I use a leave in first be it conditioner or oil. But it is easier for me to detangle when my hair is dry. I guess my hair feels soft and springy after using products. Defo not juicy lol. My hair dries pretty quick well between 2-3 hours but I assume that is because my hair is short & loose. Yes I've mainly used Giovanni conditioners and Shea moisture because I am vegan you see & will only use products that have not been tested on animals so my choice is pretty limited plus I live in the UK. Thank you for your help & questions I really appreciate it sister x

It's my pleasure. I know what it's like to have to figure stuff out on my own, so it bothers me to see someone else doing it. Thanks for answering my bazillion questions. I know that it seems like a lot, but the more that's revealed, the more equipped we are at pinpointing the issue. Vegan eh. So, the plot thickens.:lol: Alrighty, while I research vegan products, I'm going to beg your indulgence in answering a bazillion more questions while adding a few suggestions.

First, a few supplementary questions: Have you ever tried adding an oil to your DC to give it some oomph? Do you DC with or without heat? Do you have a lot of shrinkage when your hair is wet? When was the last time you had a protein treatment? How does your hair behave while straightened?

If it's easier and less damaging for you to detangle on dry hair that's been coated with product, by all means do that. There's no law that says you must detangle on wet hair. Do what's best for your particular hair needs. IME, my hair was at it most tangled under certain conditions: (1) it needed a trim; (2) it needed a dose of protein; (3) the products I used sucked; (4) my leave-in conditioner was too heavy and emollient, which caused my hair to overly clump and stick together. My hair has always been tangle prone and I just had to live with it because nothing I did seem to have an impact. I mitigated the damage somewhat by keeping my hair ridiculously stretched, in that, I found one or two hairstyles that caused the least amount of tangling. I parted my hair in the center and kept it in two braids. Sometimes, I loosed them, fluffed, slapped on a headband and wore it as a braid-out. Most often, I wore the braids pinned on the sides with two cute, sparkly clips. It looked like this:



I also added heavy sealing to my ends to further facilitate keeping my hair untangled. Heavy sealing is applying a butter or grease/grease-like product to the ends of your hair, which serves to keep them straighter and less tangled, For me, the best products for heavy sealing were greases, especially Oyin Berry Pomade. I smoothed it on the ends of my braids and it kept the hair tangle-free all week. I also never braid my hair all the way down to the end because doing so inevitably causes knots while unbraiding for some reason. However, my biggest epiphany came earlier this year when I stumbled upon a product and a technique that turned things around tremendously. I ditched (or rather temporarily pushed aside) my thick, highly emollient, creamy leave-in conditioners and moisturizers in favor of a slippery, slimy, much lighter one. That new leave-in keeps my hair soft, moisturized and tangle free for days. Even if I apply more product mid-week, it remains tangle free. That product, BTW, is called Jane Carter Untangle Me. I said all of that as a lead-in to another suggestion - you may have to find one or two go-to hairstyles that will keep the tangling to a minimum. You might also benefit from using heavy, highly emollient products that will add some weight to your hair and keep the tangles at bay. I'm assuming that the constant braiding and unbraiding can't be helping matters much. So, let's try and figure out some alternate solutions and tweak a few things to see if they'll have an impact.

FWIW, the Giovanni Direct LI kinda...sucks. I used it years ago and revisited it again about two years ago, and it produced the same results every time - dry, crispy hair. That stuff is just not good, IMO. I also used to use the Giovanni SAS conditioner, and could only get good results after adding an oil to it (either castor or almond) before sitting under a dryer.

I'll come back in a bit after I've researched for some vegan products/vendors.
 
I recently added the first hairstyle in this video as an easy, tangle-free, off my neck and out of my face go-to style. I needed something else to do that I could dress up or down that wasn't going to wreak havoc on my poor hairs.

 
Not to add too many additional questions, but how are you drying your hair before braiding?

How does your hair feel while you apply that whipped shea butter mix and after you apply it? That sounds like a heavy mix. (this may be similar to PJaye's question)

Hmm. Does your hair tangle when you air dry loose?

Have you ever tried to figure out your hair's porosity? I used to think my hair was high porosity because it dried fast. Then, I realized that it was actually low porosity and that it was drying fast because no moisture was getting in. I wonder if you aren't actually getting water into your hair when you wash it, just when you moisturize it. So it isn't stretching at all during your wash, just during moisturizing.
 
Have you tried a leave in with marshmallow root? Marshmallow root makes Leave-Ins and moisturizers super slippery without being heavy.
 
Try Camille rose naturals. It's cruelty free. It's very moisturizing. I've used several of its leave ins and curl maker is one of my favorite gels. I mainly wear wash n goes but I've also tried the almond jai twisting butter it was moisturizing even though my twist out came out horrible my hair was very moisturized.
 
It's my pleasure. I know what it's like to have to figure stuff out on my own, so it bothers me to see someone else doing it. Thanks for answering my bazillion questions. I know that it seems like a lot, but the more that's revealed, the more equipped we are at pinpointing the issue. Vegan eh. So, the plot thickens.:lol: Alrighty, while I research vegan products, I'm going to beg your indulgence in answering a bazillion more questions while adding a few suggestions.

First, a few supplementary questions: Have you ever tried adding an oil to your DC to give it some oomph? Do you DC with or without heat? Do you have a lot of shrinkage when your hair is wet? When was the last time you had a protein treatment? How does your hair behave while straightened?

If it's easier and less damaging for you to detangle on dry hair that's been coated with product, by all means do that. There's no law that says you must detangle on wet hair. Do what's best for your particular hair needs. IME, my hair was at it most tangled under certain conditions: (1) it needed a trim; (2) it needed a dose of protein; (3) the products I used sucked; (4) my leave-in conditioner was too heavy and emollient, which caused my hair to overly clump and stick together. My hair has always been tangle prone and I just had to live with it because nothing I did seem to have an impact. I mitigated the damage somewhat by keeping my hair ridiculously stretched, in that, I found one or two hairstyles that caused the least amount of tangling. I parted my hair in the center and kept it in two braids. Sometimes, I loosed them, fluffed, slapped on a headband and wore it as a braid-out. Most often, I wore the braids pinned on the sides with two cute, sparkly clips. It looked like this:



I also added heavy sealing to my ends to further facilitate keeping my hair untangled. Heavy sealing is applying a butter or grease/grease-like product to the ends of your hair, which serves to keep them straighter and less tangled, For me, the best products for heavy sealing were greases, especially Oyin Berry Pomade. I smoothed it on the ends of my braids and it kept the hair tangle-free all week. I also never braid my hair all the way down to the end because doing so inevitably causes knots while unbraiding for some reason. However, my biggest epiphany came earlier this year when I stumbled upon a product and a technique that turned things around tremendously. I ditched (or rather temporarily pushed aside) my thick, highly emollient, creamy leave-in conditioners and moisturizers in favor of a slippery, slimy, much lighter one. That new leave-in keeps my hair soft, moisturized and tangle free for days. Even if I apply more product mid-week, it remains tangle free. That product, BTW, is called Jane Carter Untangle Me. I said all of that as a lead-in to another suggestion - you may have to find one or two go-to hairstyles that will keep the tangling to a minimum. You might also benefit from using heavy, highly emollient products that will add some weight to your hair and keep the tangles at bay. I'm assuming that the constant braiding and unbraiding can't be helping matters much. So, let's try and figure out some alternate solutions and tweak a few things to see if they'll have an impact.

FWIW, the Giovanni Direct LI kinda...sucks. I used it years ago and revisited it again about two years ago, and it produced the same results every time - dry, crispy hair. That stuff is just not good, IMO. I also used to use the Giovanni SAS conditioner, and could only get good results after adding an oil to it (either castor or almond) before sitting under a dryer.

I'll come back in a bit after I've researched for some vegan products/vendors.

@PJaye you know what I think you may have stumbled on something when you said (my leave-in conditioner was too heavy and emollient, which caused my hair to overly clump and stick together) that could be it sure feels like it sometimes. Funnily enough my hair shrinks when wet & grows once dry. I would say my shrinkage is 25%. Yes I always use a heat cap when deep conditioning. I protein once month with wheat protein added to my conditioner, I got this from the green beauty channel on youtube.

I have never added a oil to my conditioner but yes I will try it... You are right giovanni direct leave in does suck I have given it 3 chances now and each time have always had to add it to my whipped shea butter mix. Yes I don't think the constant braiding is helping so tonight I have put my hair in two mini pineapples. I use Jane carter nourish and shine as a heavy sealer on my ends do you think that will suffice? Thank you so much for taking the time to help me.

3 things am gonna start to do from now on:

1. Put oil in my conditioner from now on

2. Try the Jane Carter untangle me

3 . Revisit kinky curly knot today
Thank you for the suggestions x
 
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Try Camille rose naturals. It's cruelty free. It's very moisturizing. I've used several of its leave ins and curl maker is one of my favorite gels. I mainly wear wash n goes but I've also tried the almond jai twisting butter it was moisturizing even though my twist out came out horrible my hair was very moisturized.
@Coilystep I would love to try the Camille Rose I've been eyeing it up for ages. I didn't realise it was cruelty free yippee :)
 
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Have you tried a leave in with marshmallow root? Marshmallow root makes Leave-Ins and moisturizers super slippery without being heavy.
When I first big chopped I used kinky curly knot today but never bought it again because it was so pricey and I also had scab hair at the time so it didn't do much at the time. But now I have no excuse not to re purchase it again & give it another try if I am willing to shell out almost £20 for norish and shine. Kudos :)
 
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Hmm. Does your hair tangle when you air dry loose?

Have you ever tried to figure out your hair's porosity? I used to think my hair was high porosity because it dried fast. Then, I realized that it was actually low porosity and that it was drying fast because no moisture was getting in. I wonder if you aren't actually getting water into your hair when you wash it, just when you moisturize it. So it isn't stretching at all during your wash, just during moisturizing.
@uofmpanther you know I find all this water moisturizing confusing since water opens the hair cuticle to allow the water in yet raised cuticles makes my hair rough, shrink & very tangled. I find it so confusing lol
 
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When I first big chopped I used kinky curly knot today but never bought it again because it was so pricey and I also had scab hair at the time so it didn't do much at the time. But now I have no excuse not to re purchase it again & give it another try if I am willing to shell out almost £20 for norish and shine. Kudos :)
Kinky curly knot today and the curling custard are awesome too.
 
I recently added the first hairstyle in this video as an easy, tangle-free, off my neck and out of my face go-to style. I needed something else to do that I could dress up or down that wasn't going to wreak havoc on my poor hairs.


That protective is so pretty. Unfortunately my hair is too short for that as yet ;)
 
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@uofmpanther you know I find all this water moisturizing confusing since water opens the hair cuticle to allow the water in, yet raised cuticles makes may hair rough & very tangled. I find it so confusing lol

You mentioned that nothing seems to absorb into your hair, which made me think low porosity.

You also mentioned that nothing makes your hair feel buttery. If you are low porosity, the hard part is getting the moisture in. Once it's in, it will stay in, but getting it in becomes even harder if you are putting heavy butters on your hair. You would need to first do a good cleanse. On the flip side, heavy butters tend to be great for high porosity.

Also, a lot of traditional hair advice is geared towards high porosity. For example, doing a final rinse with cool water is great for hi po, but makes my lo po hair hard and tangled.

That is why I wondered if you knew your hair's porosity.
 
You mentioned that nothing seems to absorb into your hair, which made me think low porosity.

You also mentioned that nothing makes your hair feel buttery. If you are low porosity, the hard part is getting the moisture in. Once it's in, it will stay in, but getting it in becomes even harder if you are putting heavy butters on your hair. You would need to first do a good cleanse. On the flip side, heavy butters tend to be great for high porosity.

Also, a lot of traditional hair advice is geared towards high porosity. For example, doing a final rinse with cool water is great for hi po, but makes my lo po hair hard and tangled.

That is why I wondered if you knew your hair's porosity.
@uofmpanther wow great post I get what you mean now. I did do the porosity test last year you know hair strands in a glass of room temperature water. Another test I did was seeing which dries faster after having a shower my hair or skin lol. The conclusion was part low porosity and some medium porosity but majority low
 
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You mentioned that nothing seems to absorb into your hair, which made me think low porosity.

You also mentioned that nothing makes your hair feel buttery. If you are low porosity, the hard part is getting the moisture in. Once it's in, it will stay in, but getting it in becomes even harder if you are putting heavy butters on your hair. You would need to first do a good cleanse. On the flip side, heavy butters tend to be great for high porosity.

Also, a lot of traditional hair advice is geared towards high porosity. For example, doing a final rinse with cool water is great for hi po, but makes my lo po hair hard and tangled.

That is why I wondered if you knew your hair's porosity.

This! I asked those questions specifically in order to ascertain her hair's porosity, which is crucial. @snookes, I think that you would benefit from using some of the low porosity techniques and products. I also think it's time to get rid of the Giovanni LI. You gave it a fair shot, but now it's time to lay some flowers at its feet and say a prayer. Also, if CR is a cruelty free brand as @Coilystep says, I say give her products a shot because she has an exemplary line. Her DCs and LIs are very emollient and moisturizing, and the Morrocan Pear conditioner has phenomenal slip.

I showed you the videos of the things I do with my hair so that you can know that there are low manipulation styles you can do without too much effort. I recommend going to youtube and typing in something like "simple protective styles for shorter hair" to see what comes up. It will give you some viable ideas. Give some of the things suggested in this thread a try and tweak your regimen one at a time so that you can easily tell which product or method gave good results (e.g., don't do make changes all at once because it will be difficult to tell which new thing you tried was effective). And, don't forget to come back to this thread and update us about your results both pro and con. IMO, threads like this not only helps you, but could also help others. I look forward to seeing your results!
 
This! I asked those questions specifically in order to ascertain her hair's porosity, which is crucial. @snookes, I think that you would benefit from using some of the low porosity techniques and products. I also think it's time to get rid of the Giovanni LI. You gave it a fair shot, but now it's time to lay some flowers at its feet and say a prayer. Also, if CR is a cruelty free brand as @Coilystep says, I say give her products a shot because she has an exemplary line. Her DCs and LIs are very emollient and moisturizing, and the Morrocan Pear conditioner has phenomenal slip.

I showed you the videos of the things I do with my hair so that you can know that there are low manipulation styles you can do without too much effort. I recommend going to youtube and typing in something like "simple protective styles for shorter hair" to see what comes up. It will give you some viable ideas. Give some of the things suggested in this thread a try and tweak your regimen one at a time so that you can easily tell which product or method gave good results (e.g., don't do make changes all at once because it will be difficult to tell which new thing you tried was effective). And, don't forget to come back to this thread and update us about your results both pro and con. IMO, threads like this not only helps you, but could also help others. I look forward to seeing your results!
Yes I can seriously do all that you have suggested. Yeah RIP giovanni direct hehe! Ok so I will come back and update this thread. You are right about it helping others. As since I joined I have been trolling through the archives on this forum.
 
@snookes I did a quick perusal of a few of my products and all of them were marked cruelty free.
Mielle organics
As I am
Kinky curly
The mane choice
Alikay naturals
Camille rose

I'm sure there are several more. So you shouldn't feel limited in your choices. I know you mentioned that you are in the UK and I know that some of these I listed are available there.

I also Just did a Google search for curls cruelty free and I found several articles. Here is one http://curlsunderstood.com/10-curly-hair-products-cruelty-free/
 
@snookes I did a quick perusal of a few of my products and all of them were marked cruelty free.
Mielle organics
As I am
Kinky curly
The mane choice
Alikay naturals
Camille rose

I'm sure there are several more. So you shouldn't feel limited in your choices. I know you mentioned that you are in the UK and I know that some of these I listed are available there.

I also Just did a Google search for curls cruelty free and I found several articles. Here is one http://curlsunderstood.com/10-curly-hair-products-cruelty-free/
@Coilystep Oh wow thank you very much I really appreciate it. Thank you for your time researching. Have bookmarked that link too :)
 
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I wear braidouts. I moisturize by lightly spritzing a small section with water then applying a good amount of cocount oil and maybe leave in conditioner to the ends then braid it up. This really helps stretch my hair and keep the knots down
@caligirl gosh your hair is stunning
 
You mentioned that nothing seems to absorb into your hair, which made me think low porosity.

You also mentioned that nothing makes your hair feel buttery. If you are low porosity, the hard part is getting the moisture in. Once it's in, it will stay in, but getting it in becomes even harder if you are putting heavy butters on your hair. You would need to first do a good cleanse. On the flip side, heavy butters tend to be great for high porosity.

Also, a lot of traditional hair advice is geared towards high porosity. For example, doing a final rinse with cool water is great for hi po, but makes my lo po hair hard and tangled.

That is why I wondered if you knew your hair's porosity.
@uofmpanther can I jus say that yesterday I spritzed my hair and squeezed in the moisture to the parts of my hair which are low porosity, boy did it takes ages and ages and lots of misting I swear but eventually my curls popped. I had mega definition, shine and it started to soften, I also put a disposable shower cap on so the moisture would better penetrate for a few hours. I think this is my problem I really do. I think after every wash I will have to do this routine to build up the moisture back until my areas improve.

I really believe now that those areas have been dehydrated all this time (and not moisturized at all) hence the constant breakage and lack of growth. Hopefully if I continue with this new routine my hair will take off lol. Thank you again
 
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@uofmpanther can I jus say that yesterday I spritzed my hair and squeezed in the moisture to the parts of my hair which are low porosity, boy did it takes ages and ages and lots of misting I swear but eventually my curls popped. I had mega definition, shine and it started to soften, I also put a disposable shower cap on so the moisture would better penetrate for a few hours. I think this is my problem I really do. I think after every wash I will have to do this routine to build up the moisture back until my areas improve.

I really believe now that those areas have been dehydrated all this time (and not moisturized at all) hence the constant breakage and lack of growth. Hopefully if I continue with this new routine my hair will take off lol. Thank you again

I'm glad this is working for you. You should look through the low porosity thread. We talk about techniques to get hair moisturized.

For me, when I'm washing my hair, the first crucial step is to use warm water throughout the entire wash process, and during my wash routine, I run the water over my hair until I can feel the water in my hair strands. I also use shampoo every 1-2 weeks because lopo hair tends to get buildup faster. I am also careful not to use products that are too heavy.

Looking at the cruelty free list above, I like the camille rose aloe whipped butter gel, which is lighter than the moisture aid butter. The almond jai is ok, but sometimes takes awhile to absorb. As I Am products are also fairly light, as are Mielle Organics. Alikay's Lemongrass Leave-in is nice and light, but her butter is too greasy for me. I look for water as the first ingredient in any "butter", though aloe vera gel sometimes comes before it. I try to avoid shea and cocoa butter, unless they are further down on the ingredient list and the product is a light creamy texture.

Oyin handmade is also cruelty free. I love their Hair Dew.
 
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