OSAS .. a dangerous delusion?

[Laela]

This "debate" among Christians has been around for a while. I find this article to be among the most balanced/enlightening I've ever read.... what are your thoughts on "Once Saved, Always Saved"?

“Once Saved Always Saved”
a dangerous delusion?
by Graham Pockett​

The following information relates to the belief that once saved, a Christian cannot ‘lose’ his salvation. This is often called “Eternal Security”, the opposite to which is sometimes called “Conditional Security”. Scripture quoted is from the NIV Bible, not because it is ‘best’ but because it states these points clearly while still agreeing with the KJV and other universally accepted translations. You might like to read Why I Quote The NIV Bible.

Can you lose your salvation?

Many people fervently believe that once saved, they can never lose their salvation. I pray that those who do believe it will read the following with an open heart and an open mind. Above all, I urge every reader to check each Scripture presented – and then check the context that the Scriptures are quoted in by reading at least ten verses before and ten verses after.

I sincerely believe the ‘once saved always saved’ concept to be wrong. The implication that once someone becomes a ‘real’ Christian (a definition would be handy) they are saved and that they can’t backslide or commit a sin which would rob them of that inheritance.

From my experience, Christians can sin and they often do sin but to believe that a Christian can live any way he or she likes, and still be saved, is dangerous. Some argue that a ‘real’ Christian wouldn’t commit these sins and it is the ‘almost Christians’ who fall foul of this type of entrapment from the enemy. I believe that would be wrong too. Committed Christians sin for all sorts of reasons and we are only saved by God’s amazing Grace, not our level of commitment. God knows our true heart!

If a Christian sins maliciously (deliberately breaks laws for his or her own advantage – say purchasing goods known, or strongly suspected, of being stolen) that is quite different from accidentally sinning – something we all do constantly.

God knows our true intention. We might be able to fool a police officer that we sinned accidentally, but God knows the real truth. I believe that if we deliberately go against the direction given by Jesus (who, you will remember, said to obey the laws of the land) then we must suffer the consequences – and that might mean the loss of eternal life. At least our Judge, while tough, is fair and understanding!

Let’s look at this Scripturally
Jesus understood that when people heard the Word of God they would react in different ways – from total rejection to total acceptance. He explained it in ‘The Parable Of The Sower’. I have quoted the Matthew 13:3-23 Scripture here, but the same parable can also be found in Mark 4:1-20 and Luke 8:4-15.

Matthew 13:3-9:
3 Then [Jesus] told them many things in parables, saying: “A farmer went out to sow his seed.
4 As he was scattering the seed, some fell along the path, and the birds came and ate it up.
5 Some fell on rocky places, where it did not have much soil. It sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow.
6 But when the sun came up, the plants were scorched, and they withered because they had no root.
7 Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants.
8 Still other seed fell on good soil, where it produced a crop – a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.
9 He who has ears, let him hear.” [NIV]

The Disciples wanted to know what this parable meant and Jesus explained.

Matthew 13:18-23
18 “Listen then to what the parable of the sower means:
19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in his heart. This is the seed sown along the path.
20 The one who received the seed that fell on rocky places is the man who hears the word and at once receives it with joy.
21 But since he has no root, he lasts only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away.
22 The one who received the seed that fell among the thorns is the man who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it unfruitful.
23 But the one who received the seed that fell on good soil is the man who hears the word and understands it. He produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.” [NIV]

For people who believe that “once saved, always saved” I rhetorically ask: how do you relate your beliefs to Matthew 13: 20-21? If a man cannot lose his salvation then why would Jesus say: “When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, he quickly falls away”?

The key to how we are saved is in John 3:16:
“For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.” [NIV]

I understand that the word ‘believes’ in the Greek is an on-going verb (this is not so easy to determine because Greek is a contextual language). It really says that unless we keep on believing in Him we will perish and not have everlasting life. We are saved by Grace as long as we keep on believing in Him. Let’s check another Scripture.

Mark 13:13 says:
[Jesus said] “All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.” [NIV]

Look again at the second half of that sentence. Jesus is saying that to be saved you must stand firm (for Him) until you die. Conversely He is therefore saying that those who do not stand firm will not be saved! Notice that I am not quoting Paul or any other Apostle or Disciple, but the Son of God Himself.

Was I saved when I was cursing God?

When I was quite young I gave myself to the Lord. I then drifted away from the church – and from Jesus – and ended up walking in a wilderness for 25 years. For 25 years I cursed Jesus and fought against Christianity. I ‘studied’ the Bible looking for ‘wrongness’ in it and read as many anti-Christian writings as I could. I became an intellectually strong anti-Christian and could debate, and win, with committed Christians in many areas, specially on early church history. Guess you could say that I was like Saul, a zealot against the Christians.

One day, in the fit of despair after being separated from my wife of 19 years, I asked “the Creator” (my concept at that time) how I could get her back. I heard an audible voice (which I instantly knew to be Jesus) say: “Believe in Me”. It was mind blowing to say the least. I can understand the confusion Saul must have felt when he was slam-dunked to the ground by the very Person he was persecuting. It was the same with me.

Was I ‘saved’ during those 25 years of anti-Christian ‘preaching’? From my own heart I can say a resounding NO. If I had died and gone to Heaven during that period I would have screamed to be taken to Hell! Yet I had accepted Jesus at a Youth For Christ rally when I was about 14. Saved forever, or not saved forever?

To the people who would say that I really wasn’t saved when I was young I just point them back to John 3:16. I did believe in the salvation of Jesus in those early days – I witnessed at school, I was very much involved with my local church, I even wanted to become a minister of religion when I grew up!

But, after five years, I backslid – and not just a little way either! I fell all the way into the pit and Satan had me fully in his grasp. Saved? No way. The Lord gave us the power of freewill, and I had exercised mine to be a servant of Satan.

The final proof...
“We have nothing of our own but our will. It is the only thing which God has so placed in our own power that we can make an offering of it to Him.” St John Vianney (The Curé d’Ars – 1786-1859)


If God didn’t want us to be able to choose He would not have given us the gift of freewill. It is this gift which places us above the animals. It is this gift which allows us to choose to either worship God or not worship God. It is this gift, and only this gift, which allows us to truly love Him like a son. It is this gift which proves that ‘once saved, always saved’ must be wrong.

If we are saved in spite of ourselves then there is no freewill. If there is no freewill then the Bible is wrong!

I don’t believe that the Bible is wrong...





Before you write to tell me that we are saved by Grace and not by works you should know that I agree with you (however, in James 2:14-26 it says that faith without deeds is useless).

Before you write to say that God does not take back a gift He has so freely offered you should know that I agree with you (however, I believe that God allows us to give back that gift).

Before you write to say that we are all sinners and will therefore continue to sin throughout our lives you should know that I agree with you (but it is the attitude we have towards our sinning – what is really in our hearts – that is more important).

Before you write to tell me how wrong I am you should know that I agree with you (only Jesus had perfect doctrine, the rest of us must rely on God not to judge us on our imperfect doctrine – see Do you know what really annoys me about God? by Dr Barry Chant).

 

[MoMo]

Thank you Laela!

 

[aribell]

From my experience, Christians can sin and they often do sin but to believe that a Christian can live any way he or she likes, and still be saved, is dangerous. Some argue that a ‘real’ Christian wouldn’t commit these sins and it is the ‘almost Christians’ who fall foul of this type of entrapment from the enemy. I believe that would be wrong too. Committed Christians sin for all sorts of reasons and we are only saved by God’s amazing Grace, not our level of commitment. God knows our true heart!

If a Christian sins maliciously (deliberately breaks laws for his or her own advantage – say purchasing goods known, or strongly suspected, of being stolen) that is quite different from accidentally sinning – something we all do constantly.

God knows our true intention. We might be able to fool a police officer that we sinned accidentally, but God knows the real truth. I believe that if we deliberately go against the direction given by Jesus (who, you will remember, said to obey the laws of the land) then we must suffer the consequences – and that might mean the loss of eternal life. At least our Judge, while tough, is fair and understanding!

I think I'd first say that I don't necessarily believe in the once saved, always saved mantra, and used to have all sorts of friendly debates with a former Bible study teacher of mine about it. But I don't really like the way this writer approaches the issue. I wholeheartedly agree that Christians cannot live any way they want and still claim to be "saved," but that's because I don't think that just because someone prayed a prayer or went to church or what have you, that they are "saved" and that the Holy Spirit is truly dwelling within them.

He makes this distinction between "accidental" sin and "deliberate" sin, but I really don't think that's biblical. When David called Bathsheba from her home to come sleep with him, then had her husband murdered, those actions were in no way "accidental," and yet he found forgiveness from God. When Peter outright denied Jesus one, two, and three times, just like Jesus said, that wasn't accidental. But Jesus restored him. And in Romans, Paul talks specifically about doing those things that he knows are wrong, and that being sin to him. If we do something wrong purely by accident, then it isn't sin, it's an accident. It becomes sin to us when we know what is right, but fail to do it anyway.

The verse that's usually used to talk about conditional salvation/osas is the one from Hebrews saying that if we sin deliberately, then there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment. Given the examples of biblical characters who have sinned and found repentance, I believe the verse in Hebrews is referring to apostates. Apostates being those who know the faith truly and then leave it permanently. They wholeheartedly reject it and go a different way. Apostacy is very different than one or two, or even a dozen individual sins. It's different than a period of time in which one is backslidden--it's a renunciation of the faith entirely.

As far as the parable of the sower is concerned, I would say that we as humans spend too much time trying to label ourselves and other people as "saved," "unsaved," etc. I don't think there's anything in that parable that says that the person who received the word but then got distracted was "saved." The parable doesn't tell us the interior of the hearts or souls of the people who were preached to. It only tells us the outward actions/response. And I think this is the way it is in real life. Only the Lord knows those whose response to His word is genuine. Only God can see whether someone really does know Him, or is only going through the motions, or doesn't really understand the Gospel, etc.

I really do feel the importance of not letting Chrisitans believe that grace and forgiveness means that they can do whatever they want. But at the same time, I think talking about people losing their salvation if they commit certain or too many sins puts us in the seat of trying to judge where people are with God. We are supposed to constantly preach repentance from sins, so that whoever may be sinning against God will change their ways. You can only repent by the grace and power of the Holy Spirit. So no matter what someone has done, even if they were a "Christian," if they repent, God will forgive them. And that's really all that matters.

I'm not sure that it profits us anything to preach to people that maybe they've lost their salvation or will lose it. If you think you've lost your salvation already, then there's really no reason to repent. I think that's a trick of the enemy, to be honest, to discourage people from repenting of their sins and turning back to God, making them think that they've gone too far for God to forgive them.

As far as Christians caught up in sin, I think we should just keep pointing people back to the word and Scriptures that say, "Do not be deceived, neither fornicators, nor adulterers, nor the covetous, etc. will enter into the kingdom of heaven." and "Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever one sows, one reaps." It doesn't matter whether someone calls themselves a Christian or not, prays whatever prayers at the altar, gets baptised, whatever. We are not to be deceived. If we live in sin, we will reap the wages of sin, which is death. Period.

Maybe our teaching on the nature of salvation is confusing people. Do people think that salvation is something separate from knowing and actually walking with God? That you can have eternal life without actually obeying God's commands? The Apostle John tells us that the way we assure ourselves that we are right with God, is by following His commandments. Paul tells us to "test ourselves" to see if we are of the faith. Besides obeying God, there's nothing else that can tell us that we are actually "saved."

 

[JinaRicci]

Thank you Laela! I agree that the 'once saved always saved' belief is a dangerous one. It can cause people to relax, to take for granted their salvation or not realize the need to continue to grow in Christ. I have heard some people who say "I got saved on this date" feel and act like their part is done.

The idea that you will automatically make it into heaven because you are a Christian or were baptized or confessed Jesus as your Lord at some point in your life doesn't take into account how you live your life afterwards. I don't mean back-sliding from Christianity. It's about the kind of Christian you are, how you grow in Christ, how you continue to be convicted by the Holy Spirit of certain things in your life, how you- through Jesus- put away those things. Jesus spoke so much about the fruit that we bear as a result of how we live our lives- "by their fruits you shall know them." (Matt 7:20)

Some might say that there aren't different types of Christians...

Here's what Jesus said during the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew Chapter 7):

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

There are people who are Christians- who are leaders in church-prophesying in His name- who will be lost. Why? Because how you live your life- even in secret, your motives- your heart matters to God.

I don't agree with everything in the article- some things might just be the wording. But I think I understand what he means by 'accidental' vs 'deliberate sin.' We are all sinners- we live in a sinful world and we sin- every single day. It's our default. We might be driving one day, someone cuts us off in traffic and in the heat of the moment we get mad and afterwards say "Lord, forgive me."

That sort of situation is different from the particular things in our lives that we haven't let go- particular sins that the Holy Spirit continues to convict us of and yet we keep doing. E.g. if that traffic scenario continues to happen even after the Spirit continues to speak to us. Then there are the things we know to be wrong, the things that God warns us about right before we do it and we deliberately do anyway.

Now there is danger in thinking we can't be forgiven because we've done something 'too bad for God to forgive.' There is also danger in thinking that we can continue to sin against the Holy Spirit and be forgiven- it can cost us eternal life.

Being a Christian or being saved is not a one-time thing- it's daily. Jesus said "Watch and pray for ye know not when the time is." (Mark 13: 33) He could come back at any time- we don't know when and if we're not ready we will be lost. If we were 'always saved' then why would we need to be on the alert? That's why we have to live every day as if it were the day. Just think how differently we would live if would realize that.

 

[Crown]

If we are saved in spite of ourselves then there is no freewill. If there is no freewill then the Bible is wrong!

I don’t believe that the Bible is wrong...

The Bible can not be wrong! But, we can misinterpreting.
Is there a freewill theory in the Bible?

Gen 20.6 And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.

Ex. 7.3 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.

Deut. 2.30 But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him: for the LORD thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliver him into thy hand, as appeareth this day.

Esaie 45.5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: 45.6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. 45.7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

 

[Crown]

To meditate, about election of God :

Psaumes 71.3 Be thou my strong habitation, where unto I may continually resort: thou hast given commandment to save me; for thou art my rock and my fortress.

Romans 9.11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth 9.12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. 9.13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

1Thes 1.4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

Esaie 65.9 And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.

Mat. 22.14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

Mark 13.20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

Mark 13.22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

Romans 8.33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Romans 8.35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? 8.36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. 8.37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 8.38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, 8.39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

1Pi 1.2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Heb. 8.10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

17.17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

Romans 11.4 But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. 11.5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.



Jer. 10.23 O LORD, I know that the way of man is not in himself: it is not in man that walketh to direct his steps. 10.24 O LORD, correct me, but with judgment; not in thine anger, lest thou bring me to nothing.

 

[Laela]

Hi, MoMo...

You are most welcomed...

stay blessed!

Thank you Laela!

 

[Laela]

Nicola,

I so much appreciate your comments on this.. I learn a lot when I read your posts, because you have a way of thinking that lifts up every rock and exposes every nook and cranny.. this is a compliment...so don't get mad.

To your comments,
You raise a valid point about "accidental" and "deliberate" sin.... those may not have been the best choice of words for this author, but I think he's trying to make the distinction between conscious and unconscious sin... Luke 12 (look at verses 47-48) explores the difference between the two. We can unwittingly sin and offend God and not even know it, because to us it may not have been a sin, which is why we must constantly ask his forgiveness. We are flesh and are apt to sin.

But that is not to say the person who consciously/maliciously sins won't be forgiven if they repent of that sin. Whether we consciously sin or not, God is always there to forgive us and it is because of his grace we can be forgiven. You're right, it could be treacherous for anyone to let people believe they have gone so far in sin, that they can't be forgiven or God won't take them back. God is like a parent who reprimands their child but still shows them love; so that whatever bad decision/thing that child does, he/she will never fear coming to their parent, because they know that parent loves them anyway.

I think I'd first say that I don't necessarily believe in the once saved, always saved mantra, and used to have all sorts of friendly debates with a former Bible study teacher of mine about it. But I don't really like the way this writer approaches the issue. I wholeheartedly agree that Christians cannot live any way they want and still claim to be "saved," but that's because I don't think that just because someone prayed a prayer or went to church or what have you, that they are "saved" and that the Holy Spirit is truly dwelling within them.

He makes this distinction between "accidental" sin and "deliberate" sin, but I really don't think that's biblical. When David called Bathsheba from her home to come sleep with him, then had her husband murdered, those actions were in no way "accidental," and yet he found forgiveness from God. When Peter outright denied Jesus one, two, and three times, just like Jesus said, that wasn't accidental. But Jesus restored him. And in Romans, Paul talks specifically about doing those things that he knows are wrong, and that being sin to him. If we do something wrong purely by accident, then it isn't sin, it's an accident. It becomes sin to us when we know what is right, but fail to do it anyway.

The verse that's usually used to talk about conditional salvation/osas is the one from Hebrews saying that if we sin deliberately, then there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a fearful expectation of judgment. Given the examples of biblical characters who have sinned and found repentance, I believe the verse in Hebrews is referring to apostates. Apostates being those who know the faith truly and then leave it permanently. They wholeheartedly reject it and go a different way. Apostacy is very different than one or two, or even a dozen individual sins. It's different than a period of time in which one is backslidden--it's a renunciation of the faith entirely.

As far as the parable of the sower is concerned, I would say that we as humans spend too much time trying to label ourselves and other people as "saved," "unsaved," etc. I don't think there's anything in that parable that says that the person who received the word but then got distracted was "saved." The parable doesn't tell us the interior of the hearts or souls of the people who were preached to. It only tells us the outward actions/response. And I think this is the way it is in real life. Only the Lord knows those whose response to His word is genuine. Only God can see whether someone really does know Him, or is only going through the motions, or doesn't really understand the Gospel, etc.

I really do feel the importance of not letting Chrisitans believe that grace and forgiveness means that they can do whatever they want. But at the same time, I think talking about people losing their salvation if they commit certain or too many sins puts us in the seat of trying to judge where people are with God. We are supposed to constantly preach repentance from sins, so that whoever may be sinning against God will change their ways. You can only repent by the grace and power of the Holy Spirit. So no matter what someone has done, even if they were a "Christian," if they repent, God will forgive them. And that's really all that matters.

I'm not sure that it profits us anything to preach to people that maybe they've lost their salvation or will lose it. If you think you've lost your salvation already, then there's really no reason to repent. I think that's a trick of the enemy, to be honest, to discourage people from repenting of their sins and turning back to God, making them think that they've gone too far for God to forgive them.

Amen to that!!!

As far as Christians caught up in sin, I think we should just keep pointing people back to the word and Scriptures that say, "Do not be deceived, neither fornicators, nor adulterers, nor the covetous, etc. will enter into the kingdom of heaven." and "Do not be deceived, God is not mocked; for whatever one sows, one reaps." It doesn't matter whether someone calls themselves a Christian or not, prays whatever prayers at the altar, gets baptised, whatever. We are not to be deceived. If we live in sin, we will reap the wages of sin, which is death. Period.

 

[chicacanella]

I don't believe in the once saved always saved because think about it, in Revelations doesn't it talk about a person's name and the blotting out of the Book of Life. So, if it can be blotted out but those who overcome won't be blotted out, what about those who turn away from God?

I think that a person can become saved but not live as if Jesus is truly their Lord and then it's abusing the grace of God and then they aren't saved anymore which means basically hell for them.

 

[Laela]

Hi, Crown,

I don't know about theory , but here are some Scriptures that support that God does give us a choice:

James 4:17
Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Deut 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live.”

Joshua 24:15
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Of course, God doesn't want us to choose death but if we do, the consequences are there. And if we choose life, the rewards are there.

I've talked with people who have said that if God gives us a choice and punishes us for not choosing his will, then it's really not a choice. But this is where we falter...

The Bible can not be wrong! But, we can misinterpreting.
Is there a freewill theory in the Bible?

 

[JinaRicci]

^^ ITA. At least it's not a mystery of what will happen based on our choices. We know upfront the consequences & rewards. I don't think anyone or most people want to choose death but it's about what we are willing to do- to 'give up' in order to serve God. The gain is so much more!

Thank you again- this is a great discussion.

 

[Laela]

Hi, JinaRicci,

Thank you for saying this... being saved/Christian / a professed believer is a journey and not a destination. It requires hard "work" and commitment to God. Well said!

Thank you Laela! I agree that the 'once saved always saved' belief is a dangerous one. It can cause people to relax, to take for granted their salvation or not realize the need to continue to grow in Christ. I have heard some people who say "I got saved on this date" feel and act like their part is done.

The idea that you will automatically make it into heaven because you are a Christian or were baptized or confessed Jesus as your Lord at some point in your life doesn't take into account how you live your life afterwards. I don't mean back-sliding from Christianity. It's about the kind of Christian you are, how you grow in Christ, how you continue to be convicted by the Holy Spirit of certain things in your life, how you- through Jesus- put away those things. Jesus spoke so much about the fruit that we bear as a result of how we live our lives- "by their fruits you shall know them." (Matt 7:20)

Some might say that there aren't different types of Christians...

Here's what Jesus said during the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew Chapter 7):

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father who is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy by thy name, and by thy name cast out demons, and by thy name do many mighty works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

There are people who are Christians- who are leaders in church-prophesying in His name- who will be lost. Why? Because how you live your life- even in secret, your motives- your heart matters to God.

I don't agree with everything in the article- some things might just be the wording. But I think I understand what he means by 'accidental' vs 'deliberate sin.' We are all sinners- we live in a sinful world and we sin- every single day. It's our default. We might be driving one day, someone cuts us off in traffic and in the heat of the moment we get mad and afterwards say "Lord, forgive me."

That sort of situation is different from the particular things in our lives that we haven't let go- particular sins that the Holy Spirit continues to convict us of and yet we keep doing. E.g. if that traffic scenario continues to happen even after the Spirit continues to speak to us. Then there are the things we know to be wrong, the things that God warns us about right before we do it and we deliberately do anyway.

Now there is danger in thinking we can't be forgiven because we've done something 'too bad for God to forgive.' There is also danger in thinking that we can continue to sin against the Holy Spirit and be forgiven- it can cost us eternal life.

Being a Christian or being saved is not a one-time thing- it's daily. Jesus said "Watch and pray for ye know not when the time is." (Mark 13: 33) He could come back at any time- we don't know when and if we're not ready we will be lost. If we were 'always saved' then why would we need to be on the alert? That's why we have to live every day as if it were the day. Just think how differently we would live if would realize that.

 

[Laela]

ITA... since we are triune beings, our Salvation, I believe is three-fold:
SPIRITWe are saved by grace (Eph 2:8); because it's God's gift to us through his Son, Jesus. Believing.
BODYWe are being saved (2 Cor. 4:16), through sanctification by renewal of our mind through the Holy Spirit; operating in the natural in the ways of God
SOULWe will be saved (1 Peter 1:5) at the end of time...when we are caught up to meet him. (Glorification)

It doesn't stop at confessing Jesus; from there, we must live the life.

I think that a person can become saved but not live as if Jesus is truly their Lord and then it's abusing the grace of God and then they aren't saved anymore which means basically hell for them.

 

[music-bnatural-smile]

of you confess with your mouth then you are saved...
if you sin after that, your consequences will probably be way worse than unbelievers... and who is to say that you will notice them either...
but hell is outta the question... HE keeps his promises!

Being religious takes work...
having a personal relationship takes love...
being within his grace takes obedience...

holla!

 

[Laela]

God does keep his promises... to those who obey his Word.

If you confess with your mouth AND believe in your heart, you will be saved. God doesn't operate on lip service.. the heart is where he operates. So a person can confess they are saved and not mean it and live an unrepentant life and die and go to hell. God keeps his promises in this regard, too. The wages of sin is death.

of you confess with your mouth then you are saved...
if you sin after that, your consequences will probably be way worse than unbelievers... and who is to say that you will notice them either...
but hell is outta the question... HE keeps his promises!

Being religious takes work...
having a personal relationship takes love...
being within his grace takes obedience...

holla!

 

[music-bnatural-smile]

Yeah we are agreeing... we should all know what being saved means
I think you're excluding those who are saved but have afflictions like addiction, sexual problems... etc.
even though they make mistakes nothing can take away their salvation...
"who shall separate us from the love of Christ... neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers..." etc...
I forget where that is, but I really believe it...
And I also believe only God can know someone's heart... our minds are desperately evil and wicked, and they can cause us to sin, but God can still live in the hearts of those who make mistakes...
and on top of that, we can never measure who is living right...
The person who is a virgin when they get married and also works at church, etc. might just be a really mean person...
just like the believer who dabbles in a bit of marajuana might be a strong prayer warrior...
we can never really know who He's gonna use how or when...
And we can't decide who is saved either...
and i personally don't think its my place to figure it out... I just am glad that He died on the cross for my sins!!!
Good post OP

God does keep his promises... to those who obey his Word.

If you confess with your mouth AND believe in your heart, you will be saved. God doesn't operate on lip service.. the heart is where he operates. So a person can confess they are saved and not mean it and live an unrepentant life and die and go to hell. God keeps his promises in this regard, too. The wages of sin is death.

 

[Laela]

Music,

OK I see what you're saying. God's grace is for all, of course, but when a person gets saved, they start to transform. Addictions are dis-eases of the mind and the Holy Spirit will renew the mind of a person who is saved and is doing God's will.

No one but God knows the heart, I agree.. but the Bible also says we will know them by their fruit. The Fruits of the Spirit will characterize a saved person and help them grow in God -- emphasis on "GROW". I believe that the Holy Spirit helps with any Fruit a person may be weaker in. For example, a person may show more patience than self-control and the Spirit is working on them with this characteristic. That is not to say they are not saved, but that they have weaknesses in the flesh. This is why I thank God for the Holy Spirit, he keeps me in line.

You quoted Romans 8:35, "Who shall separate us..." but it's out of context... this Scripture is referring to those who have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, those who know and believe in him, not mankind in general. Yes, we are all children of God, but sadly not everyone is willing to accept him.

Someone who loves God is not going to choose to constantly and consciously sin. Doing that only proves they do not love God. He said if you love me, you will keep my commandments.

I think you're excluding those who are saved but have afflictions like addiction, sexual problems... etc.
even though they make mistakes nothing can take away their salvation...
"who shall separate us from the love of Christ... neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers..." etc...
I forget where that is, but I really believe it...
And I also believe only God can know someone's heart... our minds are desperately evil and wicked, and they can cause us to sin, but God can still live in the hearts of those who make mistakes...
and on top of that, we can never measure who is living right...
The person who is a virgin when they get married and also works at church, etc. might just be a really mean person...
just like the believer who dabbles in a bit of marajuana might be a strong prayer warrior...
we can never really know who He's gonna use how or when...
And we can't decide who is saved either...
and i personally don't think its my place to figure it out... I just am glad that He died on the cross for my sins!!!
Good post OP

 

[music-bnatural-smile]

I think that people that are Christians consciously sin all the time... I work at church and people would make lil sly comments about my hair... like mean stuff... sin...
Or how about the people that point out everyone's wrongs rather than trying to help... sin as well...
The wife that nags her husband... sin...

So to say that Christians that consciously sin "don't love Him" would be to say that we ALL don't love Him... cuz we all sin, and all sin is equal... and I doubt that anyone does it unconsciously...

I can vouch for the Christians that stumble... I made a lot of mistakes in college... and God made sure it was torturous for me... the Holy Spirit speaks to those Christians that are wayward as well... and at least in my case, I was listening... and I was hurting... He was talkin to me don't worry LOL

I knew without a doubt that if I had died during that time I would've gone to heaven.

Music,

OK I see what you're saying. God's grace is for all, of course, but when a person gets saved, they start to transform. Addictions are dis-eases of the mind and the Holy Spirit will renew the mind of a person who is saved and is doing God's will.

No one but God knows the heart, I agree.. but the Bible also says we will know them by their fruit. The Fruits of the Spirit will characterize a saved person and help them grow in God -- emphasis on "GROW". I believe that the Holy Spirit helps with any Fruit a person may be weaker in. For example, a person may show more patience than self-control and the Spirit is working on them with this characteristic. That is not to say they are not saved, but that they have weaknesses in the flesh. This is why I thank God for the Holy Spirit, he keeps me in line.

You quoted Romans 8:35, "Who shall separate us..." but it's out of context... this Scripture is referring to those who have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ, those who know and believe in him, not mankind in general. Yes, we are all children of God, but sadly not everyone is willing to accept him.

Someone who loves God is not going to choose to constantly and consciously sin. Doing that only proves they do not love God. He said if you love me, you will keep my commandments.

 

[Crown]

Hi, Crown,

I don't know about theory , but here are some Scriptures that support that God does give us a choice:

James 4:17
Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

Deut 30:19
I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live.”

Joshua 24:15
And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD.

Of course, God doesn't want us to choose death but if we do, the consequences are there. And if we choose life, the rewards are there.

I've talked with people who have said that if God gives us a choice and punishes us for not choosing his will, then it's really not a choice. But this is where we falter...

Are we talking about salvation?

Maybe these links can better explain what I mean :
http://www.swrb.com/newslett/actualNLs/freewill.htm


http://goshareyourfaith.wordpress.com/resources/reformed-doctrine/does-the-bible-teach-free-will/

Before studying the Bible, I believed in the Arminianism teaches of freewill about salvation. But, there is no evidence of freewill in the Bible concerning the salvation. God is not an amateur. I believe in the Sovereignty of God. If He chooses, He chooses.

Romans 8.28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
8.29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 8.30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

John 17.12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

John 6.44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Eph. 1.4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 1.5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will...

Eph 2.8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 2.9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 2.10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Rev. 13.8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Romans 9.14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 9.15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 9.16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 9.17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 9.18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 9.19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 9.20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 9.21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 9.22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 9.23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 9.24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Sorry for all theses verses, there is more! But, it is important.
Salvation is by grace and election of God. Someone is not saved because he/she says : I am a Christian. He/she is saved and will be saved because God has chosen him/her and keep him/her.
Ps. 34.7 The angel of the LORD encampeth round about them that fear him, and delivereth them.
God is Sovereign and Almighty or He is not.

All Christians are not saved Christians :
Jude 1.4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

2Thes. 2.10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 2.11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 2.12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

 

[Laela]

Music,

I will keep you in my prayers because I think you have a yearning/desire that only God can satisfy.

It really is unfortunate that you seem to think Christians are the meanest people on the planet, but we canNOT allow what people say/do about us define who we are. People will always talk, so I pray you don't keep any bitterness in your heart toward "Christians" Just pray for those who don't show you any Love.

I had posted a long response to you yesterday but for some reason when I clicked the submit button, it wouldn't post. How about that? I was amused... but I'll try to repeat what had come from the heart:

I believe God wants to use you in a big way; you have a music ministry and I've seen other posters minister to you about your ministry. I hope you take this to heart. You have the ability to influence/impress young minds. I have prayed to God that you will focus on those things and not on "Christians" so that you, too, can become a blessing to others. I believe that you mean well and have a big heart but seem to be struggling because of what you experience in real life with people who profess Christ. That's the enemy at work, trying to keep you from that powerful blessing that is your birthright.

I encourage you to read the Bible and get to know God for yourself, to pray and to keep encouraged.

I'm about to run, but I'll return because I do have some Scriptures to address your response below...

Have an enjoyable Saturday.. stay Blessed!!

Laela

I think that people that are Christians consciously sin all the time... I work at church and people would make lil sly comments about my hair... like mean stuff... sin...
Or how about the people that point out everyone's wrongs rather than trying to help... sin as well...
The wife that nags her husband... sin...

So to say that Christians that consciously sin "don't love Him" would be to say that we ALL don't love Him... cuz we all sin, and all sin is equal... and I doubt that anyone does it unconsciously...

I can vouch for the Christians that stumble... I made a lot of mistakes in college... and God made sure it was torturous for me... the Holy Spirit speaks to those Christians that are wayward as well... and at least in my case, I was listening... and I was hurting... He was talkin to me don't worry LOL

I knew without a doubt that if I had died during that time I would've gone to heaven.

 

[music-bnatural-smile]

Just saw ur post LAELA... Thank you that was very sweet