How about taking Chlorella?

[caribeandiva]

Does anyone know if there are any supplements that should not be taken in conjunction with chlorella?

I wanna know this too.

 

[luckiestdestiny]

Here is what I am thinking. Yes we should be aware of this info and take it seriously...BUT think about this...

Some say that it is the build up of toxins in the body that make people sick with diseases like Rheumatoid Arthritis. So would it be crazy i I said...if CHL gets metals and toxins out of the body, then you could potentially rid the body of the autoimmune deficiency? If the autoimmune deficiency goes away, then the info mentioned is null and void. Could this be why they say take Chlorella and Spirulina together?

Disclaimer: I am not a medical professional...just thinkin

I'm not certain. I think the two (spirulina and chlorella) in an auto immune case could cancel each other out and leave you in the same spot. Meaning chlorella will cleanse you and help renew new cells (that are disease free and the reason lots of illnesses are cured with it), meanwhile spirulina is urging your body to attack itself (only because you're auto. Others will get the benefits of a stronger immune system). My boyfriend is about to finish med school and I throw stuff like this around him all the time. Even though, his studies are geared to more common medicine, but I had him look at the articles and compare. I even got him to ask some collegues even though they thumb their noses down at natural medicines (I'm talking his professors who are established doctors ) and the conclusion was not to take it to be safe. Though they did not say the same for chlorella and I also got the go ahead from my doc. Only If CHL cures the body of illness sure but meanwhile it's a no no for me.

I started thinking about this because of an experience my mother had with spirulina. She got so sick she had to go the hospital and they told her never to take it again. The same thing happened with Echinacha (wrong spelling sorry). Fast forward to the article I read that says Spirulina and Ech are immune stimulators. People with auto don't need that stimulation as their immune system is attacking itself. So that's like arming someone with weapons to destroy not foreign invaders but yourself. So I thought wow that's why she got so sick. She has lupus! But she has not had the same problem with chlorella and has taken it for over a month. She tried spirulina again, same response. Not just a detox response, a scary over the top not good response. Now her lupus is further along so her symptoms would be way bigger if she's attacked, but it made me wonder what it could do to my body as I'm auto immune too.
That's why when I looked up the info, and thought about my mom, I went to my boyfriend and started asking medical professionals. Then of course I made a decision for myself after further checking. I even looked on google and typed autoimmune and spirulina to find conflicting articles but just could not find many. Most said if you're auto, avoid spirulina.

So basically though I'm not a medical professional either, but through research, and family research (mom and I are autoimmune), I think it's best to heal the body and then try for the other stuff. I think chlorella could help do that. I just put that info out there so that everyone can make a decision for themselves.

This does not apply to cancer or dementia or things like that. In cancer the body's cells are changing, which is different from a body attacking itself. So I think spirulina would be a good candidate for that. Only in things where immune system triggers which would include things like lupus, grave's, rheumatoid, and even dermatitis and vitiligo caution is necessary when deciding to take spirulina.


Maybe it may work for others but it just seemed to ring a bell after I read that and thought of my mothers experience with spirulina. I took it in small doses in my green drink, but haven't been taking that often. I mostly focus on chlorella.

Forgot to add, I think most people recommend taking them together because it's an excellent combination for those that aren't autoimmune or have hyper activity in their immune system. For instance fish is great but not for someone allergic to it. So each person may have to consider things differently. And as MMagdal pointed out well all have to judge for ourselves after doing research and talking to medical professionals.

 

[luckiestdestiny]

I wanna know this too.

Chlorella is a complete food that will give you all the nutrients, minerals, and amino acids (and proteins) needed. Especially as you increase your dose. However anyone can take other supplements if you want. I just eat right and take my chlorella.

 

[Kimbosheart]

Im going green tonight!!
All the oil pulling has made my face crazy so I'm going to put straight chlorella powder/water paste on my face and try to sleep with it on. I will report back in the morning. My guess is either, my skin will be flawless in the morning or... it will look like pizza just depends on whats going on.

The straight chlorella and water on your face works!!! its the truth!!

Really? Did it help diminish those breakouts you were talking about?

You HAVE to elaborate!!!!!

I'm waiting for an answer too because I'm excited about the possibilities of chlorella for skin blemishes.

Here is my review step by step. I mixed the powder and water in about a 2:1 ratio. I let it sit for about 30 minutes so that it could thicken up a bit. So after washing my face and putting on the mask. I let it dry. Then I realized my face was really dry and the mask was cracking. So I put some coconut oil over the mask to help with the dryness. I could now go to sleep.

In the morning, after washing the mask off my face I had....
Beautiful, clean, SMOOTH skin. I had two blemishes in particular that I was watching. The first one was larger and still under the skin, prior to the mask and after the mask it had come to a head and was ready to be popped. The second blemish had broke the skin but didnt have the white fluid ready to be popped look. After the mask it was dried out and much smaller. Because today was my wash day I just placed more of the mix on those two blemishes and by the end of the day the 1st one was dried out and the second was completely gone.

 

[luckiestdestiny]

Here is my review step by step. I mixed the powder and water in about a 2:1 ratio. I let it sit for about 30 minutes so that it could thicken up a bit. So after washing my face and putting on the mask. I let it dry. Then I realized my face was really dry and the mask was cracking. So I put some coconut oil over the mask to help with the dryness. I could now go to sleep.

In the morning, after washing the mask off my face I had....
Beautiful, clean, SMOOTH skin. I had two blemishes in particular that I was watching. The first one was larger and still under the skin, prior to the mask and after the mask it had come to a head and was ready to be popped. The second blemish had broke the skin but didnt have the white fluid ready to be popped look. After the mask it was dried out and much smaller. Because today was my wash day I just placed more of the mix on those two blemishes and by the end of the day the 1st one was dried out and the second was completely gone.

Thanks. I'll try a little chlorella if I have a pimple.

 

[Blaque*Angel]

The straight chlorella and water on your face works!!! its the truth!!

what have you noticed so far

eta i saw the post thar sounds great, i used a spirulina mask but only for 30 minutes, i'll do it a few times and when i see any improvements i will let you all know

 

[MrsMe]

Hey ladies.
I'm gonna be on a hiatus for a few days... I'm getting very depressed and I need to refocus for my upcoming exams. I'll lurk to see how everyone is doing, but any updates from me will come later...when I feel a little better.
Thank you for your answer Kimbosheart! I'll have to get some powder when I can afford it.

 

[belle_reveuse28]

I do too. I thought it was my imagination...
ETA: Even though my BMs aren't green they are SCENTLESS!!

I guess when somebody say, "Oh, so you think yo ish dont stink", u can be like, Um, well, it doesn't.. Hahahaha (evil laugh)...

LOL

 

[luckiestdestiny]

I guess when somebody say, "Oh, so you think yo ish dont stink", u can be like, Um, well, it doesn't.. Hahahaha (evil laugh)...

LOL

 

[MrsMe]

I guess when somebody say, "Oh, so you think yo ish dont stink", u can be like, Um, well, it doesn't.. Hahahaha (evil laugh)...

LOL

And I will!

 

[belle_reveuse28]

Hey Belle - not that you are doing anything wrong, but you might want to consider adding an equal dose of Spirulina. Spirulina can provide the body with all the nutrients it needs while acting as an appetite suppressant at the same time. The pure type of Protein found in Spirulina satiates the body's need for protein, therefore animal proteins are not craved as frequently. Spirulina is considered a complete whole food. Because Chl has a much higher lipid content than Spirulina, it is generally not used for weight management.(It does aid in weight loss)

Spirulina the Metabolism Booster: The Thyroxine Factor.
Thyroxine is normally produced in the thyroid gland and is intrinsically linked to metabolic rates. Body metabolism determines to a great extent whether we burn calories or store them. Clinical studies conducted have discovered that Spirulina contains some thyroxin factors which explain why it promotes weight loss/management. This is an excerpt from a study entitled: "Thyroxine-An Active Principle of Spirulina", Uzb. Biol. Zh. by T.A. Babaev

Thanks so much, Mario... I will begin doing this tomorrow morning and will report any changes that happen within the week. The info on the Thyroxine factor was really impressive. Thanks for finding that for me!

 

[belle_reveuse28]

And I will!

HIllarious! And you know folks cant stand nobody who thinks they ish dont stink... How much more haters u gone get when it's the truth.. You cant help but to be egotistical with good smellin poopie.. Your walk changes, you add a lil mo twist to ya step, and you swing yo hair a little harder than necessary and look at everybody down the slope of your nose... I know you seen it.. I mean seriously, who are u not to stink? Got a nerve... Even babies gonna be grittin' on you! LOL! Let me go to bed, I am silly stupid right about now... I can see you walkin out the bathroom, leavin the door wide open, folks runninga nd fussin at you tellin u to shut it, and you givin them the hand.... Lawd, what ya gone do wit us Jesa!


ETA: Oh, by the way, I got my cousin on CHL and she was like Im all gassy and got the poots.. But tehy smell like the ocean.. I was like oh, so err time you pass gas on ya husband while yall in bed, instead of gagging, he's immediately transported to a holiday in the Bahamas with a smile on his face, he can even see the sunshine, huh? She was weak! So was I! Im such a visual person, I could see it all in my head!

 

[yodie]

Hi ladies. Not sure if you all know this or it's been posted already.

Trader Joe's has a "Green Plant" drink available. 64 oz for less than $4 and it has CHL and SPIR in it, along with some other yummy greens. This is kept with the other juices. Not as thick as Naked/Bolthouse Farms and tastes pretty good with CHL mixed in.

Just thought I'd share.

 

[luckiestdestiny]

Hi ladies. Not sure if you all know this or it's been posted already.

Trader Joe's has a "Green Plant" drink available. 64 oz for less than $4 and it has CHL and SPIR in it, along with some other yummy greens. This is kept with the other juices. Not as thick as Naked/Bolthouse Farms and tastes pretty good with CHL mixed in.

Just thought I'd share.

I am so going to check this out this afternoon!

 

[yodie]

Hey ladies.
I'm gonna be on a hiatus for a few days... I'm getting very depressed and I need to refocus for my upcoming exams. I'll lurk to see how everyone is doing, but any updates from me will come later...when I feel a little better.
Thank you for your answer Kimbosheart! I'll have to get some powder when I can afford it.

Are you okay? We're here to chat about things other than CHL, that's if you want to talk. I hope CHL isn't depressing you. If so, I'm sure it's just a "symptom" and will pass. Either way, please take care of yourself and check in to let us know how you're doing.

 

[luckiestdestiny]

Are you okay? We're here to chat about things other than CHL, that's if you want to talk. I hope CHL isn't depressing you. If so, I'm sure it's just a "symptom" and will pass. Either way, please take care of yourself and check in to let us know how you're doing.

Agreed Yodie,

Even I'm spilling the beans and anyone who knows me will tell you I am a very private person. You can't even get out of me where I've been the day and I don't have anything exciting to hide it's just my personality! I just feel like this thread and the ladies here are so open that I am able to share my feelings. I also do so because I hope I can help others who may have a similar problem. I hope it's a detox thing as chl can cause emotional changes, or just stress from the test that will pass. Please check in with us!

 

[Jaxhair]

Does anyone have silver fillings? I have some and all of the detox symptoms I keep reading about is freaking me out.

Not any more. i'm such a health nut I got mine changed 4 years ago when I came across how toxic they are. But that's me.... the thought of having to swallow traces heavy metal everytime i swallow did not appeal to me. I already work with nasty toxins and I just thought if I can eliminate any more exposure then i'd rather. Now, when detoxing, the worst you'll have from this is a metallc taste in your mouth. This can be dealt with with mints, ginger etc... Please don't freak out, you are doing the best you can as far as yout health goes. Detox will NOT put you in bed, unless you are super toxic. Even then, maybe just for a few hours. At my worst, all I had was a headache and nausea but they were gone in hours. I went full monty and was on juice and water only for 7 days and felt worse in day 2 after a shot of wheatgrass and some chlorella tabs. Thes etoxins are better out than in IMO.

 

[truequeen06]

Hey everyone! I haven't been in this thread for a while to update, I'll have to go back and read how everyone is doing.

School is killing me and I'm beyond stressed. I went a week without taking my chlorella and all hell broke loose .

I had pretty much gotten my acne under control and I broke out majorly. I was bloated and gained like 6 lbs, so I am getting back on track with my chlorella and I'm now gassier than ever .

Before my one week mishap, my nails have been growing like crazy, I haven't checked on my hair, but I've been really lazy with it lately . And my skin was acne free sans a few blemish scars

 

[Muse]

Does anyone notice more "eye boogers" in the morning????? For lack of a better term! LOL

Yes! I got a lot before already but this is insane! Does this mean we are detoxing through our eyes, lol?

I notice that I clean them out but 30 mins later there is more there...wierd. I have to keep checking throughout the day.

OMG! This is me! I will clean my eyes in the morning and go to work and notice it's back like I didn't even touch my eyes that morning.

Does anyone have silver fillings? I have some and all of the detox symptoms I keep reading about is freaking me out.

I just had my last OLD (had them put in like 15 years ago) silver filling removed only because I was reading a message board about this. Someone said that taking chlorella with with metal fillings is pointless because the chlorella will just keep pulling the mercury out of the filling. It's just best to totally get rid of it. I made sure to take my high dose of chlorella before going in. I asked my dentist if he believed people could suffer from mercury poisoning from their fillings (he will not use silver fillings). He said that he believes some people are sensitive to the mercury and that can manifest into some diseases people just mysteriously come down with.

I tend to agree with this, I don't think fillings affect everyone that way or there would be a lot more people running around with complications but some are way more sensitive. I say better safe than sorry so if you can have them removed I would. I just feel like I can properly detox now.

IMPORTANT FOR SPIRULINA TAKERS

I don't mind spirulina in small concentrations, but higher amounts scare me. I have found some research such as this:

http://www.raysahelian.com/spirulina.html
Spirulina and the Immune System
Apparently spirulina has the ability to stimulate the immune system which could be beneficial in some individuals, and potentially harmful in those who already have an overactive immune system or an autoimmune condition. Therefore, spirulina is not advised to be taken regularly for those who have lupus, autoimmune thyroiditis, pemphigus vulgaris, and other such autoimmune conditions.....




That's the reason I try to limit spirulina use as I do have an autoimmune condition, and my docs are checking to make sure I don't have another that is undiagnosed (as they are usually in clusters or can cause other autoimmune to happen). I definitely don't want to encourage that.

This article does say however that it's definitely good for others who don't have these problems, so please do not assume spirulina is bad. I just don't think it's advisable to me.I am pleased that you love it mariofmagdal and that you're getting benefits from it.

I know chlorella also has high protein and cgf so I have to stick to that.

I also wanted to let those with other autoimmune or other conditions know so they can judge for themselves and make a decision that's best for them.

I'm also adding this piece in this edit just for information purposes. Though it speaks of some specific auto, it is referring to all, as all auto immune illnesses attack the body, and spirulina can cause the bodies attack system to be stimulated to attack itself even more: so in Rheumatoid arthritis that would be the joints, in lupus major organs, graves the eyes and thyroid, fibromyalgia the joints and muscles, other illnesses would cause other stimulations; and on and on for example:

http://www.pemphigus.org/index2.php?option=com_content&do_pdf=1&id=76
Herbal Supplements and Autoimmune Patients
Potential Adverse Effects of Some Herbal supplements on Patients with Autoimmune Diseases
By Victoria P. Werth, M.D.

Herbal supplements are used widely, and some of these supplements may stimulate the immune system in ways that could be harmful for people who have or are prone to autoimmune diseases. There are a number of herbal medications that have been studied and have immunostimulatory effects. Among these are Echinacea, the algae Spirulina platensis and Aphanizomenon flos-aquae. We recently reported three patients with autoimmune disease, two of whom had pemphigus vulgaris, whose disease exacerbated shortly after beginning one of these herbal medications (Lee and Werth, Arch Dermatol 140:723, 2004). In one case of dermatomyositis the patient re-flared several months later after rechallenging herself with the same herbal product.

Thank you very much for this! My doc and I are CLOSELY watching for things that are keeping my immune system jumping even while I'm on 3 different suppressants. I think I have one reason-my doc and I believe that I have a systemic yeast infection and it is causing my immune system to overact because it is trying to fight it off but it's also fighting all the good stuff as well. I also suffer MAJOR fatigue and brainfog which are symptoms of Candida overgrowth throughout the body. I have been put on Diflucan for a month and my numbers are dropping after only 2 doses! This means my immune system is calming down. I think once I get rid of this I will see even better results from the chlorella.

Once we have gotten this infection under control I will monitor my spirulina. I love my spirulina dearly but if it is causing more harm than good it has to go. It is important for all info to be shared, the good and the bad. This is how we can PROPERLY make our decisions on what and how much to take.

 

[MrsMe]

Are you okay? We're here to chat about things other than CHL, that's if you want to talk. I hope CHL isn't depressing you. If so, I'm sure it's just a "symptom" and will pass. Either way, please take care of yourself and check in to let us know how you're doing.

Agreed Yodie,

Even I'm spilling the beans and anyone who knows me will tell you I am a very private person. You can't even get out of me where I've been the day and I don't have anything exciting to hide it's just my personality! I just feel like this thread and the ladies here are so open that I am able to share my feelings. I also do so because I hope I can help others who may have a similar problem. I hope it's a detox thing as chl can cause emotional changes, or just stress from the test that will pass. Please check in with us!

Thank you for your concern ladies. I don't think it's the chlorella. It's my life in general and my financial situation in particular which are causing me to get depressed. I know the economic depression affects everyone and my boyfriend keeps telling me that some people are worse off than me, I heard it so many times during the past twelve months that I don't want to hear it, because it's not getting better, it's simply getting worse for me. I graduated last year and I hoped to find a job, to no avail and most of the students who graduated with me (with the same B.S. in Education) haven't found a position either.
I don't like to give details about family matters online, so let's just say that my family treats me like a child and they still do not treat me like the 25 y.o. WOMAN that I am and have been for a while now... They're always talking about me as if I was crazy or going on drugs or having a child OOW. Although I keep telling them that none of the above apply to me, they insist that I must do as they say, because I am living at my sister's house rent-free (only because I don't have anything to pay rent with). Thus, the need for me to get independent... I even worked with a temp agency which scrued me when I went back to school in Jan.
Last night, I had to stop myself from doing a big chop and start anew with my hair because I was so depressed and frustrated... Have any of you ever felt like that? It's like I'm so mad that I want to hurt myself, but I'm a sissy... Can't take pain or don't want to take my life away unless God says it is time for me. So I wanted to cut my hair badly... I have always been a pessimistic person, so when the best happens to me, I always look calm because I just can't believe it, which is the reason why I don't think chlorella is to blame.
My financial situation has gotten to the point where I have to choose between paying my bills and buying groceries (chlorella was the last thing I bought for a reason other than the two I mentioned above). My parents come to my "rescue" everytime they sense that I can't manage but I feel bad, because that's the kind of thing that encourages their attitude toward me...
As for my boyfriend, the situation gets to him more than it should. He complains that I am not as talkative as I used to be, that I am beetchy...and I was honest with him. Right now, I'm having some difficulties that only a job or the lottery could solve so I still love you, but stop taking my depression personally. He even asked me where we were in our relationship last night Men can be such babies... I haven't argued with him, or even yelled at him, so he has no reason to worry about our relationship status which has been like that for 3 years already and isn't about to change...
Anyhow, maybe I just need a good sweat to relieve my tension... Like my boyfriend said, some people are hit harder than me by this economy.
Off to hit the books for my tests. Later.

 

[yodie]

Muse, I was reading your post and had a hmmmm... Moment.

I never heard of autoimmune disease until you ladies mentioned it. Some of your symptoms sound just like mine. I seem to have a yeast problem that just won't quit. Dr. Prescribed something and I take probiotics. Still, it exists.

At times fatigue has been ever present and brainfog... Sometimes I can't remember what I did the day before.

I just brought a bottle of SPIR yesterday, but now I'm not sure if I should take it.

I'm sick of all this yeast in my body. Haven't gone back to dr. Is there a special test I should ask for? Decided I would try Candex (amazon.com) first before I went back to Dr.

 

[deusa80]

I think I'm gonna have to start reading this thread EVERY DAY, every time I come back I'm learning something new! This morning I read a few posts and silver fillings...I have about 4 and I had no idea about the dangers of them. So I did a quick search of "chlorella and silver fillings" and everything I've read so far is that Chlorella(as well as cilantro ,spirulina, and aged garlic extract) is very helpful in mercury detoxification/elimination.

I was heading to the health store this morning to pick up some spirulina, I might just pick up some cilantro extract while I'm here.

 

[Blaque*Angel]

perlenoire thats good you let it all out hugs to you

 

[yodie]

Perlenoire83,

We're just giving you love. I know you don't want to hear another blah, blah, blah and I won't give you one. Just want to say that we care and I know some of us may know someone in your same financial position. So, we definitely understand.

I'm single (for the time being, Jesus please), but it sounds like your boyfriend is just trying to help and may not exactly know how. I think that's adorable that he's trying. He's concerned, just as we are.

Are you going into teaching? I teach now and I'm definitely trying to find a way out. If so, maybe you can sign up for substitute teaching. I know it's not the dream job, but I'm sure it'll bring in some work for the time being. I've been waiting on my "desired career" for the past 10 years and I substitute teach for the time being. I work everyday and it definitely pays the bills AND gives me flexibility to do other things.

Have a "green day."

 

[danigurl18]

Keep your head up perlenoire!!

 

[luckiestdestiny]

Yes! I got a lot before already but this is insane! Does this mean we are detoxing through our eyes, lol?




OMG! This is me! I will clean my eyes in the morning and go to work and notice it's back like I didn't even touch my eyes that morning.



I just had my last OLD (had them put in like 15 years ago) silver filling removed only because I was reading a message board about this. Someone said that taking chlorella with with metal fillings is pointless because the chlorella will just keep pulling the mercury out of the filling. It's just best to totally get rid of it. I made sure to take my high dose of chlorella before going in. I asked my dentist if he believed people could suffer from mercury poisoning from their fillings (he will not use silver fillings). He said that he believes some people are sensitive to the mercury and that can manifest into some diseases people just mysteriously come down with.

I tend to agree with this, I don't think fillings affect everyone that way or there would be a lot more people running around with complications but some are way more sensitive. I say better safe than sorry so if you can have them removed I would. I just feel like I can properly detox now.




Thank you very much for this! My doc and I are CLOSELY watching for things that are keeping my immune system jumping even while I'm on 3 different suppressants. I think I have one reason-my doc and I believe that I have a systemic yeast infection and it is causing my immune system to overact because it is trying to fight it off but it's also fighting all the good stuff as well. I also suffer MAJOR fatigue and brainfog which are symptoms of Candida overgrowth throughout the body. I have been put on Diflucan for a month and my numbers are dropping after only 2 doses! This means my immune system is calming down. I think once I get rid of this I will see even better results from the chlorella.

Once we have gotten this infection under control I will monitor my spirulina. I love my spirulina dearly but if it is causing more harm than good it has to go. It is important for all info to be shared, the good and the bad. This is how we can PROPERLY make our decisions on what and how much to take.

Exactly. Good to know your numbers are dropping BTW! Also, it sounds like you have one of the docs who actually considers other possibilities (candida) and looks into them too. No body's perfect (talking about docs) but at least yours is willing to consider other possibilities and ways of curing your body. It's always great when you get a doc who, despite what other medical training they've been given, are willing to consider other health alternatives to aid you.

 

[luckiestdestiny]

Perlenoire83,

We're just giving you love. I know you don't want to hear another blah, blah, blah and I won't give you one. Just want to say that we care and I know some of us may know someone in your same financial position. So, we definitely understand.

I'm single (for the time being, Jesus please), but it sounds like your boyfriend is just trying to help and may not exactly know how. I think that's adorable that he's trying. He's concerned, just as we are.

Are you going into teaching? I teach now and I'm definitely trying to find a way out. If so, maybe you can sign up for substitute teaching. I know it's not the dream job, but I'm sure it'll bring in some work for the time being. I've been waiting on my "desired career" for the past 10 years and I substitute teach for the time being. I work everyday and it definitely pays the bills AND gives me flexibility to do other things.

Have a "green day."

Thanks goodness we have someone here who may be able to offer some advice on teaching. Maybe you could pm yodie for pointers...if that's okay with yodie.

Keep your head up and keep pressing through. I know that you're back in school, are going for your master's this time? Here's to hoping it opens up more job possibilities for you!

 

[cocoberry10]

I currently take Spirulina. I may try this. Do they sell at Trader Joe's or Whole Foods?

 

[yodie]

Thanks goodness we have someone here who may be able to offer some advice on teaching. Maybe you could pm yodie for pointers...if that's okay with yodie.

Sure it's okay with me. Let me know if I can answer any of your questions.

 

[yodie]

I currently take Spirulina. I may try this. Do they sell at Trader Joe's or Whole Foods?

TJ's sells Spirulina. Can't vouch for it's effectiveness. Maybe someone else in this thread can comment.