Definition of "Deep Condition"

[C@ssandr@]

What about the Aphogee 2 min keratin stuff? It says 2-5 mins but seems to penetrate deep. What do we consider this one?

 

[Oasis]

Instant, deep, regular, whatever, it's all the same to my hair.

The first time I used ORS Replenishing Pak I was wowed but I guess that was fluke. That was the first and only time a DC actually worked for me.

 

[Patricia]

What about the Aphogee 2 min keratin stuff? It says 2-5 mins but seems to penetrate deep. What do we consider this one?

Good question

 

[bedazzled]

Here is my opinion.

You can turn an instant conditioner into a deep conditioner if you had some sort of humectant like honey or glycerin to it, and if you apply some sort of heat. No matter if you leave it on for 30 minutes or 10 hours..if theres nothing in the conditioner that is going to penetrate the hair shaft..the conditioner is just going to coat the hair. To me the whole deep conditioner argument is the same as Olive Oil Vs. Coconut Oil. Olive Oil can only penetrate up to 25% of the hair shaft, and Coconut Oil can penetrate up to 90% of the hair shaft. Olive oil will never penetrate up to even 50% of the hair shaft unless something else is added to it which can aid in penetration.

What about the Aphogee 2 min keratin stuff? It says 2-5 mins but seems to penetrate deep. What do we consider this one?

I don't think protein needs long penetration times. Isn't it only binding to the hair shaft? All I know is if I left that Aphogee 2 min keratin stuff on my hair for more then 10 minutes I'm sure my hair would be jackeddddddd up!

 

[vkb247]

isn't it the particle size i.e. the molecules size of the ingredients. Idk but when I researched I just heard if the bottle says leave on for 5 mins or more its a DC... I use Queen Helene Cholesterol with heat and it says 30 mins or so with a cap and heat....

I agree as well. A Deep Conditioner is a product especially formulated in some way to penetrate the Hair Shaft and most of the time is recommended to use with "Heat" I have found the AO Products as well as Jason's, Alter Ego, Banana Brulee (and others) can all be used as a Deep Penetrating Conditioner. IMO, an Instant Conditioner and/or Oil left on hours or overnight, will give you the same benefits as one designed for deep penetration with heat.

I think that you ladies are exactly right. This thread was started a while ago and my views have definitely changed. As far as quats are concerned, setting lotion is almost only quats and it is definitely not a dc. Also in an articly by the curly hair scientist at NC she states that some quats can create build up like silicones do and that definitely doesn't sound like dcing.

The more I learn about the science of hair I am more inclined to believe that there isn't a such thing as dcing or at least that it isn't anything like we think it is.

 

[vkb247]

First step, what really happens when you condition your hair? If you use shampoo, then what you first do is remove excess oils and grease from your hair leaving you with a clean shaft. What DOES NOT happen is 'opening of the cuticle'. I thought I should draw some of this out, just incase people's eyes start glazing over.

What can open up the cuticle? Commonly, chemical processing of hair such as relaxing or colour rely on alkaline products and these CAN open up the cuticle. Your average shampoo does not have the ability to do this. They are mostly mildly acidic to neutral (around pH 6-7 though 8 is considered ok) because cosmetic scientists need to consider that the shampoo can end up in your eyes, face and mouth, so it is safer to be close to neutral. See this site for some pH ranges of shampoo. Lisa Akbari also advertises a shampoo at pH 5. The pH of hair and skin is a range between 4.5 to 5.5.

Therefore, if your hair is natural, you most likely have a closed cuticle as has been seen scientifically (Khumalo et al, Journal of the American Academy of Dermatology, 2000, pp 814-820).

This leads to the question, if the cuticle is closed then what can really get in? Well two things can, water and some oils.

What kind of oil can get into the hair cortex? The complex answer is many different oils to varying degrees. The simple answer is coconut oil and olive oil have been shown to penetrate hair quite well (Hornby et al, Int Journal of cosmetic science 2005 pg299-300).


This now leaves the question, what exactly is the purpose of conditioner? Well most conditioners do just work on the outside. They soften the hair, help smooth the cuticle, minimize static, sometimes help the water stay in the cortex. When rinsed off they do leave some conditioning agents behind which keep the hair feeling soft.

So why do so many people say that deep conditioning is good? Well maybe they just have a better procedure and can get more out of it.

1. Make sure you have sufficient water, make sure you wet your hair properly and make sure your chosen conditioner has coconut oil or olive oil. If it doesn't, consider adding a teaspoon or so to it (portion out the part you are going to use and add the oil to that, do not put it into the main container).

2. Concentrate on applying the conditioner very well so as to cover your all your hair. Don't plop the conditioner onto the middle of your head, back and sides. Take your time, part the hair and apply to small sections.

3. Do you need heat? It takes 15 min for hair to get saturated in pure water while steam takes 18 hours or more (Robbins, Chemical and Physical Behaviour of Human Hair, Springer). Water directly on your hair through wetting is probably more useful than steam or vapour.

4. Should you leave it on for longer? Well you can do so if you want to, but if you leave it just for the stipulated time, then you don't need to worry too much.

So is deep conditioning a myth, what do you think?

http://thenaturalhaven.blogspot.com/2009/03/monday-myths-can-you-really-deep.html - great blog if you haven't checked it out already

 

[Patricia]

First step, what really happens when you condition your hair? If you use shampoo, then what you first do is remove excess oils and grease from your hair leaving you with a clean shaft. What DOES NOT happen is 'opening of the cuticle'. I thought I should draw some of this out, just incase people's eyes start glazing over.

What can open up the cuticle? Commonly, chemical processing of hair such as relaxing or colour rely on alkaline products and these CAN open up the cuticle. Your average shampoo does not have the ability to do this. They are mostly mildly acidic to neutral (around pH 6-7 though 8 is considered ok) because cosmetic scientists need to consider that the shampoo can end up in your eyes, face and mouth, so it is safer to be close to neutral. See this site for some pH ranges of shampoo. Lisa Akbari also advertises a shampoo at pH 5. The pH of hair and skin is a range between 4.5 to 5.5.

Therefore, if your hair is natural, you most likely have a closed cuticle as has been seen scientifically (Khumalo et al, Journal of the American Academy of Dermatology, 2000, pp 814-820).

This leads to the question, if the cuticle is closed then what can really get in? Well two things can, water and some oils.

What kind of oil can get into the hair cortex? The complex answer is many different oils to varying degrees. The simple answer is coconut oil and olive oil have been shown to penetrate hair quite well (Hornby et al, Int Journal of cosmetic science 2005 pg299-300).


This now leaves the question, what exactly is the purpose of conditioner? Well most conditioners do just work on the outside. They soften the hair, help smooth the cuticle, minimize static, sometimes help the water stay in the cortex. When rinsed off they do leave some conditioning agents behind which keep the hair feeling soft.

So why do so many people say that deep conditioning is good? Well maybe they just have a better procedure and can get more out of it.

1. Make sure you have sufficient water, make sure you wet your hair properly and make sure your chosen conditioner has coconut oil or olive oil. If it doesn't, consider adding a teaspoon or so to it (portion out the part you are going to use and add the oil to that, do not put it into the main container).

2. Concentrate on applying the conditioner very well so as to cover your all your hair. Don't plop the conditioner onto the middle of your head, back and sides. Take your time, part the hair and apply to small sections.

3. Do you need heat? It takes 15 min for hair to get saturated in pure water while steam takes 18 hours or more (Robbins, Chemical and Physical Behaviour of Human Hair, Springer). Water directly on your hair through wetting is probably more useful than steam or vapour.

4. Should you leave it on for longer? Well you can do so if you want to, but if you leave it just for the stipulated time, then you don't need to worry too much.

So is deep conditioning a myth, what do you think?

http://thenaturalhaven.blogspot.com/2009/03/monday-myths-can-you-really-deep.html - great blog if you haven't checked it out already

Glad I subscribed! Thanks for this

 

[Skent]

This was an interesting and informative thread. I've been DCing my hair since I've started my hair journey and I definitely notice a difference. I usually pre-poo with Ovation cell therapy and wash with giovanni smooth as silk moisturizing shampoo and conditioner. I leave the conditioner on and sometimes get under the dryer or just put a towel on. My hair has never felt so moisturized, healthy and fabulous. As I was reading this post I thought I might try some of the deep conditioners that were recommended but I think that's the band wagon PJ coming out in me. I think what works for your hair doesn't mean it will works for others, and if something is working, why change it?

 

[Chevelure618]

It has to have some type of protein in order to bond to the internal structure of the hair since hair is made up of almost 100% keratin protein

 

[Melissa-jane]

To me Deep Condition means

1. The product advises to be used for longer than 5 or so minutes. More like 10-20.

2. Products that usually have a mix of protein and moisture tend to be more deep conditioning too me, atleast based on experience and trends in labels

or Protein Products that pentrate quickly because of the molecular weight. These "deep condition" but I refer to them as reconstructors because they still need additional conditioning afterwards.

Examples....

Pantene Relaxed and Natural Mask
ORS Mayo
ORS replenishing conditioner
Motions Silk Protein
Kenra Mask
Kenra MC
Redken Buttertreat

I have been wondering about this for a while....some sites say a dc is an hour but I don't see that instruction on the back of the bottle. I don't always use heat either as my baby hates the noise.

 

[*Muffin*]

My definition of a deep conditioner is something that enhances your hair's ability to keep moisturized and stay elastic, helps repair damage that may have been inflicted to the strand, increases manageability, and strengthens hair so it's less prone to being damage and breaking. It has to restore, repair, protect, and strengthen. Wouldn't kill it to be nutrient-rich either so that it can encourage healthy hair growth.. I know, I'm very demanding .

 

[msa]

IMO, in order to deep condition a product has to have ingredients that penetrate the hair strand and provide long lasting benefits (ie moisture or strengthening). In my case, the moisture should last for at least a couple of days.

 

[msa]

Since this thread talks a lot about quats in conditioning, here is a great article from the Curl Chemist on which polyquat is the best for conditioning. The article says polyquat-44 is the best because it will give the conditioning you need without the buildup of other polyquats. Here's a quote:

The take-home message of this article is that products containing polyquat-44 will give you the best results compared to those formulated with other types of cationic polymers. It provides fantastic detangling and moisturizing benefits and detaches from the surface of the hair easily.

CurlChemistolyquats as Conditioning Agents

 

[anon123]

Since this thread talks a lot about quats in conditioning, here is a great article from the Curl Chemist on which polyquat is the best for conditioning. The article says polyquat-44 is the best because it will give the conditioning you need without the buildup of other polyquats. Here's a quote:


CurlChemistolyquats as Conditioning Agents

My Aveda DR is the only deep conditioner I have that has a polyquat in it. It's polyquaternium-10. Maybe that's why I notice a difference between it and the others. Now I can look for deep conditioners that have polyquats that don't cost $26/bottle.

I'm not that worried about build-up because, from the article, the worry is greatest for people who don't use sulfates. I generally use a sulfate shampoo once a month or so.

 

[SouthernStunner]

I wish this could become a sticky. I am so tired of some of the ladies saying they dc with Vo5 or Suave or some nonsense like that. Those are instant condistioners no matter how long you leave it in it still isnt a dc.

Lawd I am so tired of saying this but I am afraid that when I correct someone they will take it the wrong way. You know some of the ladies here can not take critisim.

Now back to your orginally broadcasted station.

 

[msa]

Some extra information about conditioning from Dr. Ali Syed's blog. He explains conditioning from a chemists point of view.

The right way to condition:

part 1

part 2

part 3

part 4

 

[KhandiB]

I can tell the difference between DC's and Instants.
Just noticed in the past week.

I put Organics Hair mayo on my head with a cap for like 45 minutes with heat, super slip, soft supple moisturized hair.

Had a Concoction of some EVOO and some Instants, and tried the same thing. Nope, lol. No slip, just felt , well, not conditioned. LOL

my fave DC's are Motions Moisture Plus, Organics Hair Mayo ...

 

[Daughter]

Dang dang dang.

Can I say just how ignorant I've been about deep conditioning? I used to leave the stuff on my hair under a plastic bag for 10 mins rinse it out and call it a day But I did read the label on another jar which said 30 mins and I stuck to that

Now I'm off to check the label on my ORS Mayo... I used to use LeKair Cholesterol back in the day, is that a deep conditioner, I can't remember?

 

[Hysi]

this is an interesting thread! so what i wanna know is which is better, heat under the dryer or under the steamer? i use my steamer for deep condish. should i be under my pibbs??? i know the heat sources are different so would the steamer allow the dc to penetrate better than dry heat?

 

[DaDragonPrincess]

How I DC- I may use Nairobi or Motions to DC, ounce a month I use Paul Mitchell Tea Tree Special shampoo and conditioner. I seal my conditioner with a oil such as coconut oil,olive oil,or whatever I grab. Pop on a plastic cap,and let sit for 1 to 3 hours. Treatments such as Motions CPR or Aphogee I get under the dryer,sometimes I do that with my DC's too.
​

 

[Stacy TheLady]

Personally, once for my DC, whether dry or wet hair DC, i add my moisturizer double up my shower cap and wrap a towel over that. Keep it in for no less than an hour. I usually add pure coconut cream and/or EVOO and EVCO. thats it for me.

 

[Curlyt78]

For deep conditioning I think of phrase as getting whatever you need "deep" within the hair shaft by using heat.
Some people may need to just deep condition with protien others may need a combination of protein and moisture. Deep conditioning should be based on what your hair needs at that time and getting that products or treatment deep into the hair shaft.

 

[Kimiche]

Does anyone use Elucence Moisture Balance as a deep conditioner? :scratchch

 

[lydc]

Does anyone use Elucence Moisture Balance as a deep conditioner? :scratchch

I do. I mix it with honey and an oil but I'm thinking of substituting the oil for a butter. It works well for me.

 

[3akay3]

I was wondering why I wasn't getting slip from my dc's. I read this thread and realized I'm using cheapie conditioners. Hit up WalMart today and grabbed a bottle of ORS replenishing conditioner (love that it's in a bottle now) and dc'ed my hair. SLIP!!! I get it now

 

[Americka]

Bumping for those in need...

 

[LadyRaider]

See I use DFina D and Silicon Mix they don't say 10 minutes but I do leave them on that long or longer...hmm and I use heat sometimes. i don't know if I like the way it feels after heat though. I will be watching this thread, school me ladies.

I read on the beauty brains that few actual ingredients can indeed penetrate the hair shaft. One of the exceptions was cetrimonium chloride. It's an ingredient in Silicon Mix. According to the beauty brains site, that ingredient, when used with heat can actually penetrate the hair shaft and make it stronger.

So as of right now, I know that Silicon Mix works as a deep conditioner when used with heat. I am not certain of any others.

 

[Ms Kain]

ahh man so by definition that means my biolage conditioning balm isn't a deep conditioner, and i've been using just that for 3wks omg i guess i have to go back to humecto gosh and i was so loving the soft silky results of the condtioning balm

erplexed But wait....how does your hair feel after say....2 days? Does it feel good like it's moisturized or at least balanced or is it rough? Is there any shedding or can you run your comb through it with very little hair loss?

I've never used Biolage Conditioning balm as a deep conditioner but I would think that if you've been using it as a deep conditioner for 3 wks and you don't have any complaints then why not stick with it? It just means that it works for you, you know?

On the other hand if you were already getting the shedding, the lackluster sheen, the hard feel to it or you just have a bad feeling about it then it makes sense to change......

I unno.....I hope you don't take it like I'm getting on my soapbox but what one person does with their hair may not work but if you've been fortunate to find that it works for you, then I'd run with it! sometimes I think that old folks have it right when they say," If it ain't broke, don't fix it."

 

[Esq.2B]

This response was in the comments section of that article MSA posted. The Dr. stated that Keracare Humecto isn't a deep conditioner. Really?

Dr. Ali Syed replied to comment from Artemis | June 12, 2009 1:08 AM | Reply
You mentioned that your hair is fine and it becomes limp/unmanageable upon over- moisturization. The KeraCare Humecto is not a deep penetrating moisturization product; it should be be used more as a frequent-use conditioning product.

For deep penetration, we recommend KC Intensive Restorative Masque and/or the KC Super Reconstructor for damaged hair.
It is still good to use the KC Humecto Cream Conditioner as a regular conditioner for your fine hair, and if your hair is damaged, then you can use KC Intensive Restorative Masque every 2 to 4 weeks.

Let me know if you need more information.

 

[Lucia]

Do you really want a list?

Some I have used or using:
Motions CPR Conditioning Treatment
Motions Silk Protein
Motions Moisture Plus
Keracare Humecto
Kenra MC
Kenra CMC
ORS Hair Mayo
Aphogee 2 min Reconstructor
Aubrey GPB
Pantene R&N Mask
Profectiv Growth Masque
Profectiv Growth Conditioner
Silicon Mix

that's all i can think of

thanks, any more DC's?