Church Cancels Funeral

[LadyRaider]

Jesus answered, "You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin" John 19

John 19 would be the chapter... .which verse is this? What translation are you using?

ETA: I found it. It is John 19:11. Historically that verse has been used to say Jews killed Jesus, also the basis of the sin of committing suicide (Judas) is the only unforgivable sin. I don't see any context for it being used to refer to homosexuals as he certainly wasn't thinking about them in that context. But you know... the bible was used to justify slavery, so no telling.

Your second verse is about a servant who knows what they are supposed to be doing vs one who doesn't and getting flogged by their master? Not really about sin in the eyes of God, perse. I can't find any reference connecting to sin in the eyes of God, or homosexuality.

Your third verse doesn't seem to apply either. You really don't have to guess what was most important to Jesus. He was pretty clear about the poor and the least of these as his greatest priority. Anything he left up to "interpretation" is probably suspect, re: justifying slavery, black inferiority, Jewish hatred, homosexuality as some super sin, ad naseum.

 

[Shimmie]

Jesus answered, "You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin" John 19

John 19 would be the chapter... .which verse is this? What translation are you using?

ETA: I found it. It is John 19:11. Historically that verse has been used to say Jews killed Jesus, also the basis of the sin of committing suicide (Judas) is the only unforgivable sin. I don't see any context for it being used to refer to homosexuals as he certainly wasn't thinking about them in that context. But you know... the bible was used to justify slavery, so no telling.

Your second verse is about a servant who knows what they are supposed to be doing vs one who doesn't and getting flogged by their master? Not really about sin in the eyes of God, perse. I can't find any reference connecting to sin in the eyes of God, or homosexuality.

Your third verse doesn't seem to apply either. You really don't have to guess what was most important to Jesus. He was pretty clear about the poor and the least of these as his greatest priority. Anything he left up to "interpretation" is probably suspect, re: justifying slavery, black inferiority, Jewish hatred, homosexuality as some super sin, ad naseum.

Where in the Bible did Jesus 'promote', protect, endorse homosexuality?

It is still sin, there's no getting away from it. The sadness is that precious souls are being deceived and destroyed for the defense and endorsement off it, which hindering their repentance and deliverance from it.

These lies that Jesus never condemned homosexuality is pathetic and an escape from reality. When in pure and total truth He never endorsed it.

However, Jesus did endorse Marriage between One Man and One Woman...

Jesus said, "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh" (Mark 10:7-8).
One man. One woman.

In Matthew 15:19, Jesus condemned a host of sins, one of which is pornea, translated as "sexual immorality"; it is also the origin of the word pornography (sexual sin).

In Matthew 15:19, Jesus included all the sexual sins prohibited in the Old Testament, such as pre-marital sex, adultery, homosexuality, incest, bestiality...

There is absolutely no endorsement by Jesus for homosexuality, but there is salvation, repentance and deliverance for those who will choose Jesus over this sin as with all sins.

Something to consider about 'greater sins': Out of all of the sins committed, sexual sin has the greatest penalty and with homosexuals the most deadliest... HIV / AIDS. And this disease has not been put on hold nor has it been 'saved' by gay marriage. For it is even occurring with lesbians, not just men having sex with men.

The Bible is speaking loud and clear via the consequences of this sin.

 

[felic1]

Suicide is difficult for survivors. It may take the family off guard. If murdered people can have a funeral what prohibits a suicidal death from having a tribute. While we may not preach the dead person into heaven, can we assist the family by embracing them with the love of god? These rules and doctrines cause us to miss opportunities that might lead survivors to their salvation. Just a thought.

 

[LadyRaider]

I don't think homosexuality was one of Jesus' issues. In the grand scheme of things... how important is that one? You have 33 years on earth to make a difference. Where are you going to start? Feeding the poor, correct?

 

[momi]

Jesus answered, "You would have no power over me if it were not given to you from above. Therefore the one who handed me over to you is guilty of a greater sin" John 19

John 19 would be the chapter... .which verse is this? What translation are you using?

ETA: I found it. It is John 19:11. Historically that verse has been used to say Jews killed Jesus, also the basis of the sin of committing suicide (Judas) is the only unforgivable sin. I don't see any context for it being used to refer to homosexuals as he certainly wasn't thinking about them in that context. But you know... the bible was used to justify slavery, so no telling.

Your second verse is about a servant who knows what they are supposed to be doing vs one who doesn't and getting flogged by their master? Not really about sin in the eyes of God, perse. I can't find any reference connecting to sin in the eyes of God, or homosexuality.

Your third verse doesn't seem to apply either. You really don't have to guess what was most important to Jesus. He was pretty clear about the poor and the least of these as his greatest priority. Anything he left up to "interpretation" is probably suspect, re: justifying slavery, black inferiority, Jewish hatred, homosexuality as some super sin, ad naseum.

I'm not sure if you had a chance to read the entire thread - my response was to the posters' comment below. I was not comparing homosexuality to other sins in my reply.

Aren't all sins equal in the eyes of God? Aren't we all sinners?
IMO the pastor is not doing the work of the Lord by refusing this family

Having said that - all sins are not equal in the sight of God. Even in the OT a person could make restitution for theft but adultery and other sexual sins in certain cases there was no restitution - only death.

In the case of sexual sins: which include homosexuality and fornication 1 Corinthians 6:18 puts this type of sin in it's on category. Sinning against your own body which is in fact the temple of the Holy Spirit is a blatant attack against your own flesh.

Also there is a special emphasis on those who know better but do not do better - which I think is the case in the John 19:11 scripture. Pilate definitely sinned by allowing an innocent Man to be condemned to death - however his charge was not as significant as Judas' who walked and served with Him daily, witnessed His miracles, heard Him teach and then betrayed Him.

To your point that Jesus' mission was to feed the poor I'm not sure how you can make that case. He came to lay down His life to save the lost. ETA: In fact He is quoted saying "the poor you will always have with you"...

 

[momi]

Suicide is difficult for survivors. It may take the family off guard. If murdered people can have a funeral what prohibits a suicidal death from having a tribute. While we may not preach the dead person into heaven, can we assist the family by embracing them with the love of god? These rules and doctrines cause us to miss opportunities that might lead survivors to their salvation. Just a thought.

I don't know of any church that practices this - but I do know that it happens and I tend to agree with you.

My dad always tells me that funerals aren't for the dead but for the living - so preach to the living.

 

[momi]

Where in the Bible did Jesus 'promote', protect, endorse homosexuality?

It is still sin, there's no getting away from it. The sadness is that precious souls are being deceived and destroyed for the defense and endorsement off it, which hindering their repentance and deliverance from it.

These lies that Jesus never condemned homosexuality is pathetic and an escape from reality. When in pure and total truth He never endorsed it.

However, Jesus did endorse Marriage between One Man and One Woman...

Jesus said, "For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh" (Mark 10:7-8).
One man. One woman.

In Matthew 15:19, Jesus condemned a host of sins, one of which is pornea, translated as "sexual immorality"; it is also the origin of the word pornography (sexual sin).

In Matthew 15:19, Jesus included all the sexual sins prohibited in the Old Testament, such as pre-marital sex, adultery, homosexuality, incest, bestiality...

There is absolutely no endorsement by Jesus for homosexuality, but there is salvation, repentance and deliverance for those who will choose Jesus over this sin as with all sins.

Something to consider about 'greater sins': Out of all of the sins committed, sexual sin has the greatest penalty and with homosexuals the most deadliest... HIV / AIDS. And this disease has not been put on hold nor has it been 'saved' by gay marriage. For it is even occurring with lesbians, not just men having sex with men.

The Bible is speaking loud and clear via the consequences of this sin.

Thank you Sis. Shimmie. People who hold this view (and the numbers are growing) aren't being true to the text. It's sad really - when I was in the sin no one ever tried to convince me that my ways were pleasing to God. In addition to my mother, there was always an aunt, or a grandmother, or a church member that reminded me that time was short and I needed to come as they say "back to the Lord." I can't imagine what state I would be in if they had endorsed and rubber stamped my sin.

 

[Shimmie]

Suicide is difficult for survivors. It may take the family off guard.

If murdered people can have a funeral what prohibits a suicidal death from having a tribute.

While we may not preach the dead person into heaven, can we assist the family by embracing them with the love of god? These rules and doctrines cause us to miss opportunities that might lead survivors to their salvation. Just a thought.

There are so many cases where the Bible and a prayer were found along side or within the arms of a person who had taken their life, where before their last breath they were asking God for forgiveness.

No one knows the heart of a person before they die; no matter the cause of death, no one other than God knows what they breathed into the heart of God before leaving here.

I agree as well that their death deserves tribute. :Rose:

 

[momi]

There are so many cases where the Bible and a prayer were found along side or within the arms of a person who had taken their life, where before their last breath they were asking God for forgiveness. No one knows the heart of a person before they die; no matter the cause of death, no one other than God knows what they breathed into the heart of God before leaving here. I agree as well that their death deserves tribute. :Rose:

I agree Shimmie. The Bible is clear on the unforgivable sin and it's not suicide.

 

[Shimmie]

I agree Shimmie. The Bible is clear on the unforgivable sin and it's not suicide.

momi, I can remember people saying that those who committed suicide would never make it into Heaven. I truly believe that this was used as a 'deterrent' to make one think twice before taking their life.

However, I don't want anyone who may be considering taking their life to 'run' with this and feel they are free to die by their own doing. Life is too precious to end sooner than it should. What looks or feels impossible to live with today, can always change for the better.

God still says, 'Choose Life".

 

[Galadriel]

I don't think homosexuality was one of Jesus' issues. In the grand scheme of things... how important is that one? You have 33 years on earth to make a difference. Where are you going to start? Feeding the poor, correct?

Since engaging in homosexual sex is a mortal son that separates you from Jesus Christ and leaves you in danger of Hell, it is an important issue. Mortal sin is a huge issue, and it's THE purpose for which Jesus came into the world.

 

[Belle Du Jour]

I don't think homosexuality was one of Jesus' issues. In the grand scheme of things... how important is that one? You have 33 years on earth to make a difference. Where are you going to start? Feeding the poor, correct?

Really LadyRaider? What about here in Matthew 19, Jesus affirms that marriage is between a man and a woman PERIOD:

3 Some Pharisees came to Jesus, testing Him and asking, “Is it lawful for a man to [c]divorce his wife for any reason at all?” 4 And He answered and said, “Have you not read that He who created them from the beginning made them male and female, 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate.”

Or how about this line from John:

15 If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.

Or this one from Mark:

30 and you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this, ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”

If you love God, you will try to avoid sin. If you love your neighbor, you will speak the truth in love about sin to keep him/her from going down that road. 2 men or 2 women cannot become one flesh. Their union is null and void. You are focusing on physical hunger and poverty. There is a fate worse than being poor in this life and it's hell. I don't care how many mouths you feed in this life, if they end up in hell, it really won't matter.

 

[Belle Du Jour]

You know what? I want people to STOP PLAYING. I want people to stop deluding themselves into calling sin correct and righteousness sin. I am so sick of it. How in the world can 2 men or 2 women engaging in sexual intercourse be correct??? How can that ever be correct? Just STOP IT.

 

[momi]

You know what? I want people to STOP PLAYING. I want people to stop deluding themselves into calling sin correct and righteousness sin. I am so sick of it. How in the world can 2 men or 2 women engaging in sexual intercourse be correct??? How can that ever be correct? Just STOP IT.

STOP PLAYING is right.

Or at least stop pretending that you are right when you know good and well you are wrong.

 

[mensa]

Belle Du Jour,

Blessings to you for not being afraid to speak the truth.

 

[felic1]

I don't think homosexuality was one of Jesus' issues. In the grand scheme of things... how important is that one? You have 33 years on earth to make a difference. Where are you going to start? Feeding the poor, correct?

LadyRaider Hi Sis! I just wanted to resond to your post. Jesus's ministry drew him to outcasts. He had empathy for people that seemed discarded by their community. Mary Magdelene, the woman with the issue of blood, lepers, the lady taken in adultery, mother's with dead children and no other means of support. He cleansed people that were not supposed to be present. He healed the blind who could not participate, and disabled folks that could not help themselves.

The jewish society in Jesus's time was very punitive. In most of the biblical epics that we see, the jews were real quick to pick up a rock. They always had big ones like papaya sized. I think people may have joined in stoning for entertainment. There were homosexual people in Jesus's time. Maybe they were on the down low. Jesus had gifts, to reveal mens hearts. In him dwelt the fullness of the godhead bodily. He said if you have seen me, you have seen the father. if you have heard the father, you5dg cc will hear what I say. God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah for their acts of perversion. If there be 10, God would not destroy the city. The towns were overtaken with corruption and wiped out. We cannot ignore the fact that homosexual people cannot be fruitful and multiply.
It is an unclean practice. Jesus knew the hearts of people. We cannot forget that these towns were wiped out as well as the camps of the children of Israel when Moses was on the mountain receiving the 10 commandments. The place got torn up for that mess. Our God is clean, pure and holy. He is without sin. He is asking us to come out from among them.

 

[LadyRaider]

Jesus was a new covenant. He died for the sins that occurred at Sodom and Gomorrah. You make it seem as if his death meant nothing.

Refusing the funeral was probably up there with Judas' "greater sin." Hurting people and denying them access to God is when sin gets up there.

I am always torn on the subject because I attended a great church in Austin, Texas. Kicked out of the Texas Baptist Convention for allowing blacks to attend the church, (then readmitted when times changed) for having a female deacon, (then readmitted when times changed) and finally in the mid 1990s for having an open homosexual as a deacon (that readmittance hasn't happened yet.)

So you can see why I make connections to a long history of using the bible for hate and separation?

But the reason I'm torn is that when my church was the only baptist church that welcomed Gays... they came out of the woodwork. I mean there were so many of them wanting to be welcomed in a place of worship that they "ruined" my church. LOL. Overrun. I actually stopped attending because they changed the church so much. I had different needs in a church family. But it was sad because they wanted to be welcome in a place of God so bad.

My new church is small town conservative and white. I just prefer white churches because I like highly educated Pastors... the Ph.Ds.

But having Austin sensibilities, I really have to stay out of Sunday School. Fox News Racial Views preached in Sunday School. (Blacks were better off as slaves, you know? I heard that in Sunday School.) And of course Gay hatred (very subtle though... they are not mean people.)

But my pastor, The Rev. Doctor Sandlin himself, said that there are a WHOLE lot of sins to get through before he needed to focus on sexual sin. Heh. He's a good one. I believe that's what Jesus would say (and did communicate based on his own words and the focus of his life's work.)

What good came of denying a homosexual a funeral? Did it make other sinners feel more "pure," superior? Was that Jesus' message? That there was a hierarchy of sinners?

 

[JaneBond007]

Homosexuality wasn't on the low-down in the Roman and Greek centered society at the time of Jesus. They had huge sex industries involving all sorts of unholy acts, with children and even animals. I think it's important to realize that Jesus never came to overturn the laws that were revealed at Sinai.

Matthew 5:17

"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.


Surely, Jesus had much empathy for all humanity to show us all how to live. But the sin itself cannot be ignored and made as inconsequential. His way was showing us compassion as well as equality. And we're all equally sinners. But instead of putting people to death by laws, people put themselves to spiritual death unrepented and even reap judgements of illness upon themselves. Every mortal sin we commit, someone somewhere is going to suffer indirectly from the consequences of it. We suffer directly. Compassion and the means of repentance over capitol punishment? I'm no theologian but it's a possibility?

We are still accountable and them having put this pastor in danger of promoting theological untruths was very unfair and was done on purpose. The deceased's pastor should have serviced him at his small building, then had the overflow at the cemetery. They did this as a show and to promote their "new gospel," using the unsuspecting new pastor as the venue.

 

[felic1]

LadyRaider Hello Sis! I do not undersand what you mean by he died for the type of sins committed at Sodom and Gomorrah. I am not attempting to put you down. You said I make it seem like his death meant nothing. As a fellow christian, we know that we were redeemed by his blood. If I have offended you in any way, I will apologize. Have a great day to everyone!!

 

[Mortons]

If we are to judge people by their sins even in death, no one should get a funeral service. Surely we have all committed something that the Lord despises. Why bother with funeral rites period?

I'm one who thinks that funerals are for the living. The dead are with God for Him to judge (not you any longer). Let the Lord take care of the souls he created, and we can take care of the grieving on earth as good stewards.

 

[CoilyFields]

Why cancel the funeral? It had nothing to do with his life choices and everything to do with the grieving process and laying him to rest. ..wherever that resting place may be. I see this as no different than a pastor doing a funeral for a fornicator of a heterosexual persuasion. He's not offering approval or support for his choices.

The only way I could understand was if the pastor had this same policy for everything; no christening oow kids, no marrying people who fornicated, no funerals for adulterors etc.

 

[Shimmie]

I see it also from the standpoint of keeping one's word. God holds us to our word.

With the above said, I still strongly hold the family accountable for NOT getting this clear while making the arrangements. When my mom passed away, as sad as we were, we STILL made sure that 'ALL' was in order... 'ALL'. We made sure that all of the particulars were in order.

Anytime anyone makes arrangements with ANY venue...for whatever reason.. 'ANY' ... it is imperative to have all of the 'understandings' in check... period. And this family cannot use their grieving as validation.

As I re-read the article, no one in the family was taking accountability for not checking with the Church regarding it's policies. They (the family members of the deceased) were wrong to not do so. They knew that this was a CHURCH, it is their fault for not being upfront with the Church about the deceased's lifestyle and if it would be an issue.

All of this talk from the partner (not a valid spouse) about their relationship not being a 'secret' to anyone, is not credible, as the mother of the deceased clearly stated that the Church was one that she 'USED' to belong to... key words here: 'Used to'. It was their responsibility to confirm with the Church if the person being in a gay lifestyle would be acceptable or not.

All of this 'woe is me' from the family and their cries that 'the Church done us wrong' is only going to end up as a backfire to them (the family).

All of these attacks upon the Churches are only going to end up as 'the boy who cried wolf'. It's going to fall upon death ears as folks get tired of playing pity pat with grown adults.

It is still a Church! Regardless of what the media and the gay agenda are trying to paint picture perfect about gay acceptance (which in truth is gay bullying / enforcement), the Church still has to honor the Word of God which will never change and will always call this lifestyle 'SIN'; and it is a sin which is un-repented as the fight for it entails...they do not want to acknowledge that this is a lifestyle that God forbids (which includes Jesus), which in turn, the Church cannot endorse nor support.

Now as a Minister, I personally would have performed the service and/or allowed it. If for no other reason that I gave my Word and for the love of Jesus Christ who died for this dear life now passed away.

However, all of this blame on the Church who declined is not valid...for both sides are equally accountable.

 

[Laela]

Funeral - A funeral is a ceremony for celebrating, respecting, sanctifying, or remembering the life of a person who has died. Funerary customs comprise the complex of beliefs and practices used by a culture to remember the dead, from interment itself, to various monuments, prayers, and rituals undertaken in their honor. Customs vary widely between cultures, and between religious affiliations within cultures.

As much as a funeral is to comfort the living, it sounds like the pastor was put in a precariously conflicting situation and was not given a choice as to how to honor/respect or celebrate this person's life considering his beliefs. The family should have told him.

 

[Shimmie]

As much as a funeral is to comfort the living, it sounds like the pastor was put in a precariously conflicting situation and was not given a choice as to how to honor/respect or celebrate this person's life considering his beliefs. The family should have told him.

Laela, I agree. They should have shared all of the details beforehand.

 

[momi]

As much as a funeral is to comfort the living, it sounds like the pastor was put in a precariously conflicting situation and was not given a choice as to how to honor/respect or celebrate this person's life considering his beliefs. The family should have told him.

I agree Laela - but I guess since they felt that their lifestyle was perfectly appropriate then others would as well.

The lesson learned for me is to ask the right questions! Having said that - with recent legislation asking questions about someone's sexuality/gender could be against the law.

My goodness.

 

[Shimmie]

I agree Laela - but I guess since they felt that their lifestyle was perfectly appropriate then others would as well.

The lesson learned for me is to ask the right questions! Having said that - with recent legislation asking questions about someone's sexuality/gender could be against the law.

My goodness.

momi, You know what?

When I had finally taken the time to re-read the article, it is apparent that there is a strong delusion with a high expectation that this lifestyle is supposed to be considered normal by everyone.

Quoting the partner:

"Everyone who knew us knew about our relationship," he said. "We didn't keep secrets."

Yet, this relationship wasn't shared with the Church which would have prevented the outcome.

Why am I sensing a 'conspiracy' behind this? While it seems 'why would it be', yet there's something about this that keeps saying 'conspiracy', that an 'agenda' is beneath this.

 

[JaneBond007]

You can know about someone's lifestyle. You can also feel sorry they died. Two different things that don't necessarily cross the same tracks.

 

[Shimmie]

I don't think homosexuality was one of Jesus' issues.

In the grand scheme of things... how important is that one? You have 33 years on earth to make a difference.

Where are you going to start? Feeding the poor, correct?

I'm just taking time to read through each post in this thread and I noticed that I needed to comment on this only for the sake of clarity...not for offense or contention.

The First Miracle and Act that Jesus performed here on earth was in celebration of a Marriage... The Wedding at Cana, which was indeed not a gay marriage but the Marriage between One Man and One Woman, under God.

John 2

5 His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.”

6 Nearby stood six stone water jars, the kind used by the Jews for ceremonial washing, each holding from twenty to thirty gallons.

7 Jesus said to the servants, “Fill the jars with water”; so they filled them to the brim.

8 Then he told them, “Now draw some out and take it to the master of the banquet.”
They did so,

9 and the master of the banquet tasted the water that had been turned into wine. He did not realize where it had come from, though the servants who had drawn the water knew. Then he called the bridegroom aside

10 and said, “Everyone brings out the choice wine first and then the cheaper wine after the guests have had too much to drink; but you have saved the best till now.”

11 What Jesus did here in Cana of Galilee was the first of the signs through which he revealed his glory; and his disciples believed in him.

Not long after, Jesus took a whip and turned the tables of the 'money changers' (thieves) who were disrespecting the Temple of Worship.