Bible's Stance on Women in the Church

[pbuckley]

When you read Paul's teachings it is clear that women are not to hold any positions of authority over a man, she is to remain quiet.

What bible versus do some baptist churches and the like use to show where it is now acceptable? I am currently looking for a church home and the last few baptist churches I visited had either a women preacher/speaker/women leading the prayer, etc.... Is this okay?

 

[GodsPromises]

When you read Paul's teachings it is clear that women are not to hold any positions of authority over a man, she is to remain quiet.

What bible versus do some baptist churches and the like use to show where it is now acceptable? I am currently looking for a church home and the last few baptist churches I visited had either a women preacher/speaker/women leading the prayer, etc.... Is this okay?

To understand the context that Paul was speaking in, at that time women was interupting the services asking question at the wrong time and that is why Paul stated that women should remain quiet and ask their husbands at home if they have any questions.

Where it is found acceptable. I can't think of exact verses but I will say my thoughts on the matter. In the Old Testament one of the many judges of the Isralites was a woman. Debra was able to judge with love and a firm hand and was able to lead the Isralites into victory in a war because she sought God and listened to his voice. Also in the Old Testament we have the story of God using a donkey to speak. If God will use a donkey to speak why would a women be used any less. Now in the New Testament it was a woman who first proclaim that Jesus was alive and not dead. What else is a preacher/messanger then someone who proclaims the Good News of the Savior. In the beginning God stated let us make man and woman in our image. That right there states that God does not see sex but he will use anyone he calls and wants to use.

 

[pbuckley]

What about this scripture in 1 Timothy?

I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15But women[a] will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

I'm at a point where I want to know that I am worshiping in truth. Any thoughts? Color me confused

 

[PaperClip]

What about this scripture in 1 Timothy?

I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15But women[a] will be saved through childbearing—if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

I'm at a point where I want to know that I am worshiping in truth. Any thoughts? Color me confused

I ask this facetiously, but women teach Sunday School, right? Children's Church, yes? Both of these events at churches do have boys in them, yes? In other words, if women can teach boys, then they can certainly teach men....

I concur with LadyR's answer. And to add that the Bible speaks about covering.... A woman can preach and teach the Word, and even pastor a church, she just needs a male covering. That male covering could be her husband, her pastor, or other pastoral-type figure who is properly authorized to serve in such a capacity.

 

[GodsPromises]

One thing that we have to remember is that we have to take the whole bible not just one scripture when we are trying to understand God's teaching. Yes Paul stated that in 1 Timothy however we have to look at the times in which he wrote it.

In Joel 2:28-30 and Act 2:17 God says that " he will pour out his spirit on all flesh, your sons and daughters shall prophesy.

In the Old Testaments there was female prophets such as Huldah who preached in the day of Jerehiah and Deborah as I stated before who was a judge. In the New Testament the Apostle Phillip's four daughters preached the Word of God and was not stopped.

Sis, you have to pray and seek God's guidenance on this matter. We can give you examples for both arguments but you have to know for yourself what thus saith the Lord.

 

[pbuckley]

One thing that we have to remember is that we have to take the whole bible not just one scripture when we are trying to understand God's teaching. Yes Paul stated that in 1 Timothy however we have to look at the times in which he wrote it.

In Joel 2:28-30 and Act 2:17 God says that " he will pour out his spirit on all flesh, your sons and daughters shall prophesy.

In the Old Testaments there was female prophets such as Huldah who preached in the day of Jerehiah and Deborah as I stated before who was a judge. In the New Testament the Apostle Phillip's four daughters preached the Word of God and was not stopped.

Sis, you have to pray and seek God's guidenance on this matter. We can give you examples for both arguments but you have to know for yourself what thus saith the Lord.

Thanks, and that's pretty much where I am at, trying to figure out for myself what I believe, at the same time I want answers like now! The bible leaves so much up to individual interpetation that its just living me even more confused. I shall be patient and keep reading trying to figure out the truth. Thanks for replying

 

[alexstin]

You also must not forget that many times things are based on the culture and customs during that time. It is very important to understand the culture and also regarding the Epistles what specific church issues Paul may have needed to address. If not, we can sometimes read into scriptures things that aren't even there because we approach with out own perceptions and biases of the era and culture we are a part of.

For example Romans 12:20 says Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.


Now if you don't know the historical context, than heaping coals of fire on someone's head may be seen as a bad thing.
Actually this is what is means: What does it mean to heap coals of fire upon someone's head? This has been described as a reference to an Oriental custom. A fire in the center of a village was kept going day and night. This fire was used to light the fires in individual homes each day. Every morning a village youth would put a container on his head, and hot coals would be heaped into it. He would then go from house to house distributing the hot coals so that the villagers could start their fires. On cold days this was an enviable job, since the heat from the coals of fire kept the head and hands of the youth warmed. To heap coals of fire on someone's head, then, means to warm him, and, by extension, to bless him.

 

[breezy]

You also must not forget that many times things are based on the culture and customs during that time. It is very important to understand the culture and also regarding the Epistles what specific church issues Paul may have needed to address. If not, we can sometimes read into scriptures things that aren't even there because we approach with out own perceptions and biases of the era and culture we are a part of.

For example Romans 12:20 says Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.


Now if you don't know the historical context, than heaping coals of fire on someone's head may be seen as a bad thing.
Actually this is what is means: What does it mean to heap coals of fire upon someone's head? This has been described as a reference to an Oriental custom. A fire in the center of a village was kept going day and night. This fire was used to light the fires in individual homes each day. Every morning a village youth would put a container on his head, and hot coals would be heaped into it. He would then go from house to house distributing the hot coals so that the villagers could start their fires. On cold days this was an enviable job, since the heat from the coals of fire kept the head and hands of the youth warmed. To heap coals of fire on someone's head, then, means to warm him, and, by extension, to bless him.

Quick question about this...how are we to determine what in the bible should be taken literally and what should be dismissed or evolved as a part of culture?

 

[Aubergold]

Quick question about this...how are we to determine what in the bible should be taken literally and what should be dismissed or evolved as a part of culture?

good question

 

[Shimmie]

Quick question about this...how are we to determine what in the bible should be taken literally and what should be dismissed or evolved as a part of culture?

Excellent Question:Let's use the example of clothing. The word of God says the following:

(Deuteronomy 22:5 (Old Testament)

"The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God."

Many would say that a man's apparrel consists only of a shirt and trousers and a jacket (depending on the occasion).A woman's apparrel would be that only of a dress or a skirt/blouse. However, we all know that today this is not so.

Now, does this mean we as women are in sin for wearing trousers/slacks, etc.? Or does it mean that men in other cultures (such as Scotland where men wear kilts) are in sin? Putting aside fashion trends and exploitation; different styles of clothing changed (especially in our Western culture) to serve a purpose.

Many women had little choice than to 'don' a pair of her husband's coveralls or jeans to help with the farming, tilling the ground and other duties deemed necessary in order to survive. Dresses and skirts simply were not practical nor functional and actually not affordable for with that type of hard labor a dress or skirt would not last.

Of course fashion trends have come into making pants, jeans quite fitting to our body forms , but this is where modesty comes into play and we use common decency and sense.

The leggings that I wear to Dance class, I would not wear publicly to the Mall or to work or let alone Church. They are too form fitting and not at all modest, but I need the flexibility that they give me for different body movements in class.

In the gym, I wear super long and XXLarge T-Shirts, for there are men in the gym and I don't want their stares. I think your get my point. We have to use judgment.

From the New Testament in 1 Timothy 2:9:

"In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with braided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;"

Okay, in modern day venacular..."Avoid, abstain, flee from "Ghetto Fabulous" Sorry about that.

From my understanding and teachings, the Apostle Paul's point was that all it takes for a woman of God to be beautiful, was to not be haughty or proud. Simple beauty is all that is required.

As a woman of God, it's the heart, the inner spirit, the pureness of our hearts and our love for each other that should be seen over the outward appearance.

Question: Have you ever noticed the wives of elected officials. "Less is best" is always their fashion trend. Simple hair, makeup, jewelry, no stiletto heels,

Braiding the hair is not a sin; but back then the trend was interweaving gold threads, beading, pretty much the same as we do here, but it was overstated and as a woman representing the Lord, it was just not necessary.

The Bible is and always will have much mystery to it, but the blessings and the promises that God brings to pass in our lives outweigh the mysteries.

The one and only true way that we are able to make a right distinction is by the Holy Spirit. Each time I don't understand, which is often, I ask, "Holy Spirit can you help me with this?" He alway does and with so much love.

I can share lots more, but I am trying to keep this as brief as possible. I've left out quite a lot. But have I helped any? If not, I'll come back with more. The other ladies have just as much to share if not more...

Everyday, I learn. We all do.

 

[Aubergold]

Excellent Question:Let's use the example of clothing. The word of God says the following:

(Deuteronomy 22:5 (Old Testament)

"The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the LORD thy God."

Many would say that a man's apparrel consists only of a shirt and trousers and a jacket (depending on the occasion).A woman's apparrel would be that only of a dress or a skirt/blouse. However, we all know that today this is not so.

Now, does this mean we as women are in sin for wearing trousers/slacks, etc.? Or does it mean that men in other cultures (such as Scotland where men wear kilts) are in sin? Putting aside fashion trends and exploitation; different styles of clothing changed (especially in our Western culture) to serve a purpose.

Many women had little choice than to 'don' a pair of her husband's coveralls or jeans to help with the farming, tilling the ground and other duties deemed necessary in order to survive. Dresses and skirts simply were not practical nor functional and actually not affordable for with that type of hard labor a dress or skirt would not last.

Of course fashion trends have come into making pants, jeans quite fitting to our body forms , but this is where modesty comes into play and we use common decency and sense.

The leggings that I wear to Dance class, I would not wear publicly to the Mall or to work or let alone Church. They are too form fitting and not at all modest, but I need the flexibility that they give me for different body movements in class.

In the gym, I wear super long and XXLarge T-Shirts, for there are men in the gym and I don't want their stares. I think your get my point. We have to use judgment.

From the New Testament in 1 Timothy 2:9:

"In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with braided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;"

Okay, in modern day venacular..."Avoid, abstain, flee from "Ghetto Fabulous" Sorry about that.

From my understanding and teachings, the Apostle Paul's point was that all it takes for a woman of God to be beautiful, was to not be haughty or proud. Simple beauty is all that is required.

As a woman of God, it's the heart, the inner spirit, the pureness of our hearts and our love for each other that should be seen over the outward appearance.

Question: Have you ever noticed the wives of elected officials. "Less is best" is always their fashion trend. Simple hair, makeup, jewelry, no stiletto heels,

Braiding the hair is not a sin; but back then the trend was interweaving gold threads, beading, pretty much the same as we do here, but it was overstated and as a woman representing the Lord, it was just not necessary.

The Bible is and always will have much mystery to it, but the blessings and the promises that God brings to pass in our lives outweigh the mysteries.

The one and only true way that we are able to make a right distinction is by the Holy Spirit. Each time I don't understand, which is often, I ask, "Holy Spirit can you help me with this?" He alway does and with so much love.

I can share lots more, but I am trying to keep this as brief as possible. I've left out quite a lot. But have I helped any? If not, I'll come back with more. The other ladies have just as much to share if not more...

Everyday, I learn. We all do.

So we should all pray and ask God to show us what's relevant and what's not?

 

[breezy]

So we should all pray and ask God to show us what's relevant and what's not?

Right? B/C the way it seems ti me, you all have basically said that the idea that women should not teach men in the church isn't relevant now b/c of how cultures have changed? I'm very confused b/c so many times I am told that certain things in the bible aren't up for debate...it's very frustrating for me in trying to be a good Christian, I need to know what is really relevant and what isn't? Do we just pick and choose due to how the world and society evolves?

 

[alexstin]

Quick question about this...how are we to determine what in the bible should be taken literally and what should be dismissed or evolved as a part of culture?

A part of rightly dividing the word is checking to see other references in scripture for whatever you are studying. In terms of the example I referenced. We know that Jesus said "Love your enemies" so it would not make literal sense to "heap coals of fire upon an enemies head". Looking at it from that perspective I would then have to ask myself "well then what does it mean to heap coals of fire upon my neighbors head?" . That takes you back to the meaning of Romans 12:20. I hope that was not confusing.


Another thing, do an internet search on inductive bible study. A lot of times we come to the bible based on our preceptions as stated previously. When you use inductive studying you're taking your perspective out of the equation. For example, you'll learn that reading one scripture is not the best way to study the bible. Now, I'm not saying that you should never choose one scripture to meditate on or use in a lesson, etc etc. But you need to make sure you're reading that scripture IN CONTEXT. As we know the context in which something is used is very important. Unfortunately, I think most believers at one time or another have been guilty of choosing one scripture at the exclusion of those surrounding it.

If I tell you that I'm a little blue today. You'll immediately think I'm a little sad.
But if you know the rest of the story is that I had my body painted for a modeling job and I have almost removed all the blue stain from my skin then my initial sentence takes on a completely diffferent meaning(silly example sorry )

That's probably as clear as mud, right?

 

[Shimmie]

Right? B/C the way it seems ti me, you all have basically said that the idea that women should not teach men in the church isn't relevant now b/c of how cultures have changed? I'm very confused b/c so many times I am told that certain things in the bible aren't up for debate...it's very frustrating for me in trying to be a good Christian, I need to know what is really relevant and what isn't? Do we just pick and choose due to how the world and society evolves?

None of us will ever be good Christians, for it indicates perfection which is something we can never be as humans. And in answer to your question, "no", we cannot pick and choose scripture and make it conform to our choices.

But we can do this. Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and trust Him. Jesus promised that He would not leave us confortless. That He was leaving the Holy Spirit with us to lead and guide us into all truth.

Luke 11:13

"...how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?"

Ephesians 1:13

"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise."

God is not the author of confusion, so when we ask Him to make something plain to us, to increase our understanding, He marvels in doing so.

We all know the 10 Commandments and in that alone it covers our lives. But nothing covers us more than developing our relationship with the Lord, one-on-one. I can promise you, the answers will come and they will come as a 'knowing' deep down in your heart and soul.

While there are many cultural changes and trends in society, or just in life period, there will still be one 'constant' in our lives, which is a loving one-on-one personal relationship with God the Father, who will not fail you or confuse you as life itsself will.

As for Women leading in the Church; ask God if this leader (male or female) is 'of' Him. If so, God will confirm to you that she's been called and appointed to lead. Sometimes God could not 'find' a male able/willing to take the lead for a need. God will give you His peace in your heart about it.

God still means what He says in His word, and even when we don't understand, He always says this, "Trust Me."

Psalm 73:28

But it is good for me to draw near to God: I have put my trust in the Lord GOD, that I may declare all thy works.

 

[Shimmie]

So we should all pray and ask God to show us what's relevant and what's not?

I love this word from Job 34:32

That which I see not teach thou me: if I have done iniquity, I will do no more.

Yes, we are to always seek God for everything. For the very reason that we cannot depend upon 'men' (mankind) and life itsself, we can always depend upon God who will never fail us or mislead us.

Look at this beautiful story with King Solomon...He sought God for wisdom and understanding.

1 Kings 3:7-14

7 And now, O LORD my God, thou hast made thy servant king instead of David my father: and I am but a little child: I know not how to go out or come in.

8 And thy servant is in the midst of thy people which thou hast chosen, a great people, that cannot be numbered nor counted for multitude.

9 Give therefore thy servant an understanding heart to judge thy people, that I may discern between good and bad: for who is able to judge this thy so great a people?

10 And the speech pleased the LORD, that Solomon had asked this thing.

11 And God said unto him, Because thou hast asked this thing, and hast not asked for thyself long life; neither hast asked riches for thyself, nor hast asked the life of thine enemies; but hast asked for thyself understanding to discern judgment;

12 Behold, I have done according to thy words: lo, I have given thee a wise and an understanding heart; so that there was none like thee before thee, neither after thee shall any arise like unto thee.

13 And I have also given thee that which thou hast not asked, both riches, and honour: so that there shall not be any among the kings like unto thee all thy days.

14 And if thou wilt walk in my ways, to keep my statutes and my commandments, as thy father David did walk, then I will lengthen thy days

Isn't this beautiful. God was so pleased to be asked for understanding that He gave King Solomon added treasures. Not that the treasures are our motive, but God is so willing to give us wisdom and understanding of His word.

The thing is, I don't have all of the answers, actually, I don't have ANY answers, not even with this post. But I know the One who does and that's God who knows all and hears all.

He's God and we need Him. And one reason why I believe He keeps so much of Himself and about life as a mystery to us is so that we will hunger to know Him just a little bit more and more intimately.

Constant Prayer ... Communication....that's all it's really about. He will always instruct anyone who asks. When I listen to Him, I benefit. When I'm distracted, His mercy prevails and He covers me anyway.

Psalm 102:17

He will regard the Prayer of the destitute, and not despise their Prayer.

God loves our Prayers. They make His day. For us, He's always there...
He's where the answers are that we are seeking in this thread and out ...

 

[pbuckley]

Right? B/C the way it seems ti me, you all have basically said that the idea that women should not teach men in the church isn't relevant now b/c of how cultures have changed? I'm very confused b/c so many times I am told that certain things in the bible aren't up for debate...it's very frustrating for me in trying to be a good Christian, I need to know what is really relevant and what isn't? Do we just pick and choose due to how the world and society evolves?

YEAH!! Thats exactly how I have been feeling. *I've been gone for a day so I haven't read further yet, just wanted to pipe in that your not alone on this*

okay back to finishing reading

 

[breezy]

YEAH!! Thats exactly how I have been feeling. *I've been gone for a day so I haven't read further yet, just wanted to pipe in that your not alone on this*

okay back to finishing reading

Thanks, I was wondering if other's felt this way...

 

[pbuckley]

I love this word from Job 34:32

That which I see not teach thou me: if I have done iniquity, I will do no more.

Yes, we are to always seek God for everything. For the very reason that we cannot depend upon 'men' (mankind) and life itsself, we can always depend upon God who will never fail us or mislead us.

Look at this beautiful story with King Solomon...He sought God for wisdom and understanding.

1 Kings 3:7-14

7 And now, O LORD my God, thou hast made thy servant king instead of David my father: and I am but a little child: I know not how to go out or come in.

8 And thy servant is in the midst of thy people which thou hast chosen, a great people, that cannot be numbered nor counted for multitude.

9 Give therefore thy servant an understanding heart to judge thy people, that I may discern between good and bad: for who is able to judge this thy so great a people?

10 And the speech pleased the LORD, that Solomon had asked this thing.

11 And God said unto him, Because thou hast asked this thing, and hast not asked for thyself long life; neither hast asked riches for thyself, nor hast asked the life of thine enemies; but hast asked for thyself understanding to discern judgment;

12 Behold, I have done according to thy words: lo, I have given thee a wise and an understanding heart; so that there was none like thee before thee, neither after thee shall any arise like unto thee.

13 And I have also given thee that which thou hast not asked, both riches, and honour: so that there shall not be any among the kings like unto thee all thy days.

14 And if thou wilt walk in my ways, to keep my statutes and my commandments, as thy father David did walk, then I will lengthen thy days

Isn't this beautiful. God was so pleased to be asked for understanding that He gave King Solomon added treasures. Not that the treasures are our motive, but God is so willing to give us wisdom and understanding of His word.

The thing is, I don't have all of the answers, actually, I don't have ANY answers, not even with this post. But I know the One who does and that's God who knows all and hears all.

He's God and we need Him. And one reason why I believe He keeps so much of Himself and about life as a mystery to us is so that we will hunger to know Him just a little bit more and more intimately.

Constant Prayer ... Communication....that's all it's really about. He will always instruct anyone who asks. When I listen to Him, I benefit. When I'm distracted, His mercy prevails and He covers me anyway.

Psalm 102:17

He will regard the Prayer of the destitute, and not despise their Prayer.

God loves our Prayers. They make His day. For us, He's always there...
He's where the answers are that we are seeking in this thread and out ...

Thanks for this Shimmie! I will pray more fervently to God for understanding.

Thanks!

 

[Sweet C]

Well, the view of women in the church had always been controversial. I encourage you to go and do the research for yourself, b/c you will come to a better understanding when you search the matter out. So I am just going to pose a question.

The two scriptures that deal with women not speaking come from 1 Timothy 2 and 1 Cor 14. However, in the NT(OT as well), we see women speaking and leading. The prophetess Anna prophesized in the temple (Lk 2:36-40), Priscilla and her husband Aquila both corrected Apollos (Acts 18:24-28), Philip's daughters prophesized (Acts 21:9), Phoebe was a deaconess (Rom 16:1-2), and Junia was an apostle (Rom 16:7). How do these women reconcile with what Paul says in 1 Timothy 2 and 1 Cor 14?

 

[pbuckley]

Well, the view of women in the church had always been controversial. I encourage you to go and do the research for yourself, b/c you will come to a better understanding when you search the matter out. So I am just going to pose a question.

The two scriptures that deal with women not speaking come from 1 Timothy 2 and 1 Cor 14. However, in the NT(OT as well), we see women speaking and leading. The prophetess Anna prophesized in the temple (Lk 2:36-40), Priscilla and her husband Aquila both corrected Apollos (Acts 18:24-28), Philip's daughters prophesized (Acts 21:9), Phoebe was a deaconess (Rom 16:1-2), and Junia was an apostle (Rom 16:7). How do these women reconcile with what Paul says in 1 Timothy 2 and 1 Cor 14?

Thaks Sweet C - I will print this out and do the research. I appreciate you taking the time to give me these examples! Thanks!