FindingMe
Well-Known Member
I think I need to go back and take another look at the products I am using: 
From No-Poo Jillipoo's blog:
http://jillipoo.blogspot.com/search?q=cones
Polyquaterniums seem to behave much like silicones -- they bind to hair and in some cases, aren't even fully removed even by sulfate-laden shampoos. Should curlies be mindful of polyquats, and if so, which ones? Are we worrying about silicones when polyquats are really much harder to remove? And do polyquats block moisture like silicones do?
PERRY: Curlies should be much more concerned about Polyquats than silicones. Polyquats are positively charged polymers that effectively stick to the damaged sites on hair. They make the hair feel smooth and soft but they can also build up with repeated use resulting in flatter, less lively curls. They can even be more difficult to remove than even Dimethicone. The most problematic polyquat is Polyquaternium-10. While it is the most effective at conditioning hair, it is also the most likely to build-up. Better choices include Polyquaternium-7 or Guar Hydroxpropyltrimonium Chloride.
Neither silicones nor polyquats significantly block moisture. The negative to using them is that they build up on hair and weigh it down.
JESS: When researching what ingredients to put in our Confident Coils Styling Solution, it because obvious that many curlies have an aversion to polyquats. For this reason I left it out and thus haven't done much further research on it as I don't intend to use them in any future products. So I guess I don't have an emotional opinion on them one way or the other.
MARSHA: Polyquat 7 and 11 seem to be the most substantive and hardest to remove if you do not shampoo. I do not find that Polyquat 10 is not as hard to remove. Chlorides seem to do a good job at removing it. Guar Hydroxpropyltrimonium Chloride is an interesting ingredient -- it's a great conditioner but you have to be careful as too much seems to over condition the hair and cause frizz. I've used it in small amounts in some of my products and have had no complaints, but it's easy to overuse and I've seen other products that use too much. Polyquats 4 and 44 are not very difficult to remove. Polyquats 37 and 72 are supposed to provide good curl retention and I suspect would be harder to remove, although I haven't actually used them in my products (although I've tried them out in other products I've tested). And interestingly, Polyquat 72 hasn't been picked up by the industry as much as I would have expected, which probably also says something about its performance record. I believe most shampoos will remove any kind of polyquat, though. When you see some of these ingredients before they go into a formulation, you get a sense of how they behave. For instance, Polyquats 10 and 4 and Guar Hydroxpropyltrimonium Chloride are powder and dissolve instantly in water. For me, this gives you some clue about how they'll behave on hair (in terms of water solubility), especially when you contrast them with Polyquats 7 and 11, which are gluey.
JC: As a surface scientist, I can say that there are quite a few things that cannot be completely removed by SLS; to completely remove, a proper solvent (like chloroform) is needed. We need to redefine this idea of 'complete' removal and why we feel it is necessary because in order to do so, extreme measures have to be taken.
As Perry says, polyquats stick to hair as they have a positive charge. This is similar to other conditioning agents that curlies have no problem with such as such as stearalkonium chloride or behentrimonium chloride. Now people will like different types of conditioning agents. The general trend I have noticed in literature is that polyquats tend to be more useful for damaged hair (bleached). I really have to emphasize and say not all hair will react in the same way to a given product. Some people will swear by polyquats, others won't.
Even more unique, a seemingly similar combination of ingredients from two different companies can yield different results. It really is about how well the product was formulated, so I'm with Marsha on this one, test it first and see how it behaves.
TIFFANY: "Polyquaterniums" is an extremely general category and it is difficult to make a sweeping assumption and say whether or not they are "good" or "bad" across the board. From a cosmetology perspective, however, allergic contact dermatitis, or a hypersensitivity reaction, is not uncommon among some individuals after exposure to certain polyquaterniums.
Most surfactants seem to be effective in removing polyquat build-up; however, I would more cautious about their use from a health perspective rather than a beauty perspective if an individual is prone to any type of skin sensitivities.
From No-Poo Jillipoo's blog:
http://jillipoo.blogspot.com/search?q=cones
Polyquaterniums seem to behave much like silicones -- they bind to hair and in some cases, aren't even fully removed even by sulfate-laden shampoos. Should curlies be mindful of polyquats, and if so, which ones? Are we worrying about silicones when polyquats are really much harder to remove? And do polyquats block moisture like silicones do?
PERRY: Curlies should be much more concerned about Polyquats than silicones. Polyquats are positively charged polymers that effectively stick to the damaged sites on hair. They make the hair feel smooth and soft but they can also build up with repeated use resulting in flatter, less lively curls. They can even be more difficult to remove than even Dimethicone. The most problematic polyquat is Polyquaternium-10. While it is the most effective at conditioning hair, it is also the most likely to build-up. Better choices include Polyquaternium-7 or Guar Hydroxpropyltrimonium Chloride.
Neither silicones nor polyquats significantly block moisture. The negative to using them is that they build up on hair and weigh it down.
JESS: When researching what ingredients to put in our Confident Coils Styling Solution, it because obvious that many curlies have an aversion to polyquats. For this reason I left it out and thus haven't done much further research on it as I don't intend to use them in any future products. So I guess I don't have an emotional opinion on them one way or the other.
MARSHA: Polyquat 7 and 11 seem to be the most substantive and hardest to remove if you do not shampoo. I do not find that Polyquat 10 is not as hard to remove. Chlorides seem to do a good job at removing it. Guar Hydroxpropyltrimonium Chloride is an interesting ingredient -- it's a great conditioner but you have to be careful as too much seems to over condition the hair and cause frizz. I've used it in small amounts in some of my products and have had no complaints, but it's easy to overuse and I've seen other products that use too much. Polyquats 4 and 44 are not very difficult to remove. Polyquats 37 and 72 are supposed to provide good curl retention and I suspect would be harder to remove, although I haven't actually used them in my products (although I've tried them out in other products I've tested). And interestingly, Polyquat 72 hasn't been picked up by the industry as much as I would have expected, which probably also says something about its performance record. I believe most shampoos will remove any kind of polyquat, though. When you see some of these ingredients before they go into a formulation, you get a sense of how they behave. For instance, Polyquats 10 and 4 and Guar Hydroxpropyltrimonium Chloride are powder and dissolve instantly in water. For me, this gives you some clue about how they'll behave on hair (in terms of water solubility), especially when you contrast them with Polyquats 7 and 11, which are gluey.
JC: As a surface scientist, I can say that there are quite a few things that cannot be completely removed by SLS; to completely remove, a proper solvent (like chloroform) is needed. We need to redefine this idea of 'complete' removal and why we feel it is necessary because in order to do so, extreme measures have to be taken.
As Perry says, polyquats stick to hair as they have a positive charge. This is similar to other conditioning agents that curlies have no problem with such as such as stearalkonium chloride or behentrimonium chloride. Now people will like different types of conditioning agents. The general trend I have noticed in literature is that polyquats tend to be more useful for damaged hair (bleached). I really have to emphasize and say not all hair will react in the same way to a given product. Some people will swear by polyquats, others won't.
Even more unique, a seemingly similar combination of ingredients from two different companies can yield different results. It really is about how well the product was formulated, so I'm with Marsha on this one, test it first and see how it behaves.
TIFFANY: "Polyquaterniums" is an extremely general category and it is difficult to make a sweeping assumption and say whether or not they are "good" or "bad" across the board. From a cosmetology perspective, however, allergic contact dermatitis, or a hypersensitivity reaction, is not uncommon among some individuals after exposure to certain polyquaterniums.
Most surfactants seem to be effective in removing polyquat build-up; however, I would more cautious about their use from a health perspective rather than a beauty perspective if an individual is prone to any type of skin sensitivities.
Roundtable participants:
- Marsha Coulton, the owner of Curl Junkie, who concocts her own products and was a stylist before that. She's got definite opinions about curly hair.
- JC, whose blog I wrote about a few months ago. She is a curly-hair scientist in the UK who backs up her findings and determinations about hair by quoting from specific scientific studies.
- Jessica McGuinty, founder of Jessicurl, shies away from silicones, soaps, and polyquats in her product formulations, and as she stated in a recent interview, does a lot of testing of these products and how they perform.
- Tiffany Anderson-Taylor, aka StruttsWife on the NaturallyCurly.com discussion boards, has been a hair stylist in Florida for several years, and recently wrote a book about caring for curly hair. Her site, Live Curly Live Free, is a fantastic resource for people curious about curls' unique needs. She is not a fan of silicones.
- Perry Romanowski, an independent cosmetic formulator who is associated with one of my favorite blogs, The Beauty Brains as well as a site for cosmetic chemists called Chemists Corner. He's written a book titled Beginning Cosmetic Chemistry, and he has been a senior project leader at Alberto Culver.
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olyquats as Conditioning Agents
and maybe even polyquat 10 for low poo-ers ie both being easily removable but 44 having more conditioning properties...
I feel you. I got confused reading about it and decided to ask the board for opinions.
