All the Hair Science Buffs and Anyone Else That Has Hair Knowledge-Please Help!

chicacanella

New Member
Hi,

I was reading up on the science of relaxers and I want to post something from Dr. Syed of Avalon Syntonics.

Many times on here, we talk about conditioning your hair right after you rinse the relaxer from your hair with luke warm water as I heard cold water closer hair cuticles. Well, I think that is a great idea because as I read on Dr. Syed's blog, the hair cuticles are about 30% open.:yep:

Now, usually I've heard on here that we should use a protein conditioner which I'm sure helps in some way but what I am wondering is if we can include cationic conditioners with this process or alone.

This is what Dr. Syed says about the process of applying relaxers and what I want to focus on is in red:

  1. The pH of the untreated hair is in the range of 4.5 to 6.5 and the cuticles are considered closed, as the hair isn't swollen in the dry state.
  2. The pH of cream relaxers is around 13.0. When the relaxer is applied to the hair, the pH of the hair increases to 13.0 and the hair diameter swells as much as 60 - 80 percent of its original size. Also, the cuticles become wide open while the relaxer is on the hair. This is the best opportunity to condition the hair because the cuticles are open to the widest possible degree.

    Unfortunately, most conditioners are not stable at the pH of 13; especially the single molecules of quaternary ammonium compounds-- conditioning agents used in most conditioners. However, there a select few cationic polymers that remain stable at a high pH, and condition the hair while it is simultaneously being straightened by the relaxer. These conditioning agents are able to penetrate deep into the cortex of the hair and condition the hair more permanently than conventional conditioners. Since the molecular weight of these conditioners is around 1 million, they get stuck in the cortex of the hair when the cuticles start to close during rinsing of the relaxer. Also, these conditioners can stay in the cortex of the hair upto 4 shampooing treatments.
  3. After 13 to 18 minutes of relaxer treatment, the excessively curly hair generally becomes straight and at that stage, the relaxer is rinsed from the hair with tepid warm water for 4 to 5 minutes. The pH of the hair drops down to about 10 and the hair isn't as swollen as when the relaxer was on the hair. The cuticles are about 30 percent open at this stage. This is the second best opportunity to condition hair in the relaxing process. Since the cuticles are about 30 percent open, the conditioners such as high molecular weight cationic polymers are able to penetrate deep into the cortex of the hair and condition hair from the inside out. This penetration of conditioning agents is less than the penetration of conditioners during relaxing process.
  4. After rinsing the post-relaxer conditioner with water, the hair is then shampooed with Neutralizing/Normalizing shampoo of pH 4.5 to 6.5. Generally, a high quality neutralizing shampoo contains cationic polymers, mild detergents, organic acids (like citric acid or lactic acid), and color indicators to signal the neutralization of alkaline residue derived from relaxers. The hair acquires the pH of the neutralizing shampoo, that is, it comes back to its natural pH balance while the cuticles close back down to a level that is close to the original state.
So, as you can see, Dr. Syed is saying that there are indeed conditioners, cationic conditioners that can remain stable at a high PH and condition while it is simultaneously being conditioned. He says that the second best time to effectively condition is when the relaxer is rinsed out.

My questions would be: What do you all think these cationic polymer conditioners that can withstand high heat are...any guesses?

And, if your hair is suppose to be technically wet while relaxing, should you a.) mix the relaxer and the cationic polymers together or b.)put the relaxer on first and then put the conditioner with the relaxer?

Damage%2031.jpg
A perfect hair intact from a newborn baby.

Cuticles of the hair strand up close:

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These are lifted to alter the cortex when relaxing.

Damage%202.jpg


hair-cross-section.gif
 
I have no answer for you...just wanted to say I love Dr. Syed.

Oh wow! Yeah, I'm late cause' I pretty much just found out about Dr.Syed. He works for Avalon Hair company, the people that have the Ferm perms, Fiberguard relaxers. I think they are pretty good with their products because that's what alot of black stylists use; um, like that's a credible source on LHCF since alot of us are anti-stylists!:lachen:


But no, I think Avalon has pretty good products.

I'm assuming he is a doctor of organic chemistry. Is it possible for you to email him?

I know he is a doctor of chemistry but I'm not sure about the specifics. Well, I was thinking of asking on his blog of any products he knew or would suggest but I'm wondering, "Shouldn't Avalon have it since he is likely a senior or maybe even director of their labs?" Wouldn't it be great if they had the cationic conditioners he talks about?:grin:

I'm wondering though if they don't have it, would he be cautious or less likely to recommend a product that isn't under the Avalon company?
 
I don't see anything wrong with adding a cationic polymeric conditioner to your relaxer routine, if you choose to do so.

FYI, proteins are natural polymers - a polymer is a large macromolecule, which regular repeat units, and have very high molecular weights. I haven't done a lot of research into cationic polymeric conditioners, but I am aware of various polymers that have high heat tolerances. The polymer is most likely ionized to allow it to be water-soluble, because the majority of polymers are insoluble in water. Ionization allows the polymer chain to interact with the water molecules (which also ionizes naturally) to allow the polymer to then become soluble.

I wouldn't mix the condition in with the relaxer because you don't know if any preciptates or salts will be formed as a byproduct of the mixing. If I was trying this on my own hair, I'd apply my cationic conditioner after I rinsed the relaxer and leave it on for a short period of time to allow penetration.
 
I don't see anything wrong with adding a cationic polymeric conditioner to your relaxer routine, if you choose to do so.

FYI, proteins are natural polymers - a polymer is a large macromolecule, which regular repeat units, and have very high molecular weights. I haven't done a lot of research into cationic polymeric conditioners, but I am aware of various polymers that have high heat tolerances. The polymer is most likely ionized to allow it to be water-soluble, because the majority of polymers are insoluble in water. Ionization allows the polymer chain to interact with the water molecules (which also ionizes naturally) to allow the polymer to then become soluble.

I wouldn't mix the condition in with the relaxer because you don't know if any preciptates or salts will be formed as a byproduct of the mixing. If I was trying this on my own hair, I'd apply my cationic conditioner after I rinsed the relaxer and leave it on for a short period of time to allow penetration.

Thanks so much.

I overlooked the answer to one of my questions but this is the following Q&A of Dr.Syed with some of his blog members.




Simone | November 27, 2008 12:27 AM | Reply

Thanks for this insight article about hair relaxers. I will pass this info on to my many friends who uses relaxers.
You mentioned "there a select few cationic polymers that remain stable at a high pH, and condition the hair..." What are these polymers? I would like to start checking to see if these are the ingredients in any of the relaxers I have previously used.
What is your opinion about adding a hair oil like ApHOGEE Essential Fatty Acids Oil Concentrate to any of the at-home relaxer kits prior to application?



Dr. Ali Syed replied to comment from Simone | December 2, 2008 12:32 PM | Reply

The cationic polymers that are stable in relaxers are Polyquaternium 6, Polyquaternium 7, and two others that are patented by Avlon industries.



Ms. Byfield | February 7, 2009 6:48 PM | Reply

Dr. Syed, the cationic polymers that you refer to are they present only in the conditioner or does there exist a seperate conditioning agent made of these polymers that could be applied during the process? Further which if any of your relaxers acheive this conditioning process?
Thanks in advance,



Dr. Ali Syed replied to comment from Ms. Byfield | February 15, 2009 6:14 PM | Reply

Ms. Byfield:
The cationic polymers are used just before the relaxers as a protective (leave in) serum. This way the cationic polymer can penetrate in the hair cortex during hair relaxing.
The relaxer itself contains a good dose of a cationic polymer as well.
After the relaxer is rinsed from the hair, a penetrating conditioner containing the same cationic polymer is applied to the hair for 5 minutes and then rinsed. Finally, the Neutralizing Shampoo also contains the cationic polymer in order to make sure that enough of the cationic polymer stays in the hair cortex and the surface.
The function of the cationic polymer is to strengthen the hair fibers and make the hair fibers comb very easy during wet and dry states.
This process was devised by me about 25 years ago and I keep refining this process as the new and innovative raw materials become available.
There are three relaxer systems that are available in the market place based upon this approach: The FiberGuard Relaxer System, The Affirm Relaxer System, and the latest one is The Syntonics Botanical Relaxer System.
Avlon's latest strengthening deep conditioner containing cationic polymers, and other strengthening ingredients as well, is called KeraCare Intensive Restorative Masque, which is a deep conditioner and increases the strength of the hair by 42% in one application.


So, they do indeed have this system which is found in the highlighted relaxer systems above. I would confer that Keracare does pretty well at maintaining the strength of the hair during and after the relaxer process. I hope to use them for my next relaxer.:yep:
 

Oh wow! Yeah, I'm late cause' I pretty much just found out about Dr.Syed. He works for Avalon Hair company, the people that have the Ferm perms, Fiberguard relaxers. I think they are pretty good with their products because that's what alot of black stylists use; um, like that's a credible source on LHCF since alot of us are anti-stylists!:lachen:




He's the president of the company...he created it.

If you really want a good read check out his series "the right way to condition"...no need to spend more than 30 minutes conditioning, especially if you use a dryer/heat cap.
 
He's the president of the company...he created it.

If you really want a good read check out his series "the right way to condition"...no need to spend more than 30 minutes conditioning, especially if you use a dryer/heat cap.

I'll go and check out what he says about conditioning. I never knew he created Avalon; that's cool!

I don't use those though so I think it take more time for me; I'll go read what he says though.:yep:
 
His credentials... Not gonna front; I don't know what all the letters mean (as far as what is degree is in).

B.Sc (Honors) M.Sc MBA Ph.D.

Looks like Bachelors of Science, Master of Science, Master of Business Administration, Doctor of Philosophy.

I wonder what his doctorate is in though...probably something science related.
 
What's with all the sciencey talk? :lachen: That "catationic polymer" is just a way of saying use a product like Affirm Protecto and Preservo before relaxing, which conditions the hair as you relax, and use a conditioner like Roux Porosity Control to further condition afterwards! So simple LOL
 
What's with all the sciencey talk? :lachen: That "catationic polymer" is just a way of saying use a product like Affirm Protecto and Preservo before relaxing, which conditions the hair as you relax, and use a conditioner like Roux Porosity Control to further condition afterwards! So simple LOL

Actually a cationic polymer is a long chain macromolecule that has a positive ionization, or charge.

<---a polymer chemist

Porosity Control doesn't "condition" in that it doesn't infuse into the cuticle - PC lowers the pH of the hair, causing the cuticles to close and smooth.
 
In my opinion, his blog is the most informative on the internet when it comes to hair science. I literally spent days reading it from front to back when I found it last year. He will go above and beyond to help you, just drop him an email or question in his comment section. And you can google many of his presentations and journal publications on hair.

There is also an informative post about wet to dry flatironing where he took the time to do an experiment and posted about it. The conclusion was that it was not beneficial to your hair, and that alone saved me from a setback... because I was going to try it. I heart his blog!
 
Wow! Thank you! I've read all his articles til like May of last year to date, and I'm gonna keep on reading. I'm learning so much. It's comforting to hear the perspective of someone who studies hair as a chemist. I just subscribed to his Youtube channel too.
 
What's with all the sciencey talk? :lachen: That "catationic polymer" is just a way of saying use a product like Affirm Protecto and Preservo before relaxing, which conditions the hair as you relax, and use a conditioner like Roux Porosity Control to further condition afterwards! So simple LOL

According to naturally curly's scientist, Tonya McKay, cationic polymers are polyquats and the characteristics of these polymers vary so not all are going to have the small molecules.

There are cationic polymers, conditioners, and surfactants and they seem to be in most hair products.

Because I texlax, I always mix my relaxer with conditioner and sometimes with serums that contain SAA. I also always do a pre neutralizing protein conditioning treatment. I have never texlaxed any other way so it is hard for me to say how beneficial this is but I don't have to dc after I relax, my hair is very strong, and has lots of elasticity. But that might be the henna!
 
According to naturally curly's scientist, Tonya McKay, cationic polymers are polyquats and the characteristics of these polymers vary so not all are going to have the small molecules.

There are cationic polymers, conditioners, and surfactants and they seem to be in most hair products.

Because I texlax, I always mix my relaxer with conditioner and sometimes with serums that contain SAA. I also always do a pre neutralizing protein conditioning treatment. I have never texlaxed any other way so it is hard for me to say how beneficial this is but I don't have to dc after I relax, my hair is very strong, and has lots of elasticity. But that might be the henna!

^^ It might be. I know for sure extended use of henna has made my natural hair very strong with good elasticity but I know very little about hair science so I can't back this up with the appropriate biochemistry - yet. Time for me to check out this guy's blog and start reading up on these things.
 
The cationic polymers are used just before the relaxers as a protective (leave in) serum. This way the cationic polymer can penetrate in the hair cortex during hair relaxing

Great info! I will need to consider doing this before my relaxer in July :yep:
 
I did my relaxer yesterday and used a conditioner with cationic polymers in it. I'm very pleased with the results and will definitely add this to my relaxer day regimen from now on.

The conditioner I used was Vigorance Capilary Mask. I found it in Marshalls one day last weekend when I was out shopping for the rest of my relaxer supplies. It was $5.99 so I got all 3 jars. Yes, the PJ in me reared its ugly head, but its not often that I find a conditioner with a label that actually says it has cationic polymers in it.
 
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