Did anybody watch? Your thoughts?
http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/story?id=4149598&page=1
(Click to see the video at right)
http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/story?id=4149598&page=1
(Click to see the video at right)
ABC's Nightline & Pastor Creflo Dollar (Jan. 08)
- Thread starter PaperClip
- Start date
RR.....................
Yes I did. Hmmmmmmm, :scratchch: Okay, let me ask you a question. How did it 'grab' you when it was mentioned that Creflo refused to release his financial records?
Another question:
The member (male) who shared that although he (personally) hasn't reached that level of success, he felt he had hope that he would.
Okay, I know about the blessings of being a 'Giver' into the work of God. I've lived it too long and EVERY promise that God has given me regarding me and my family has come to pass.
I'm a Giver and always will be. So I cannot dispute the principles of tithes, offerings and love gifts into ministries. I've lived it too long and I'm living and reaping the good fruit of it.
With that said, I feel uncomfortable about the Creflo Dollar investigation. Why? Because I know that there are some things in question.
Did you see the spot with Kenneth Copeland? (Creflo's mentor). quoting him: "...that is none of your business!"
Okay...here's the thing. Ministry funds have always supported the ministers. But there are going to be 'suspect' expenditures; not so much that they were 'wrong' expenses, but they will be 'suspect', by the media who are sharks and are looking for 'blood in the waters'.
Am I making any sense? I kinda wish we were having this discussion in a 'round table' (Peaceful discussion format). Because not everyone is going to see innocense where there is true innocense.
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Whewww.... Shimmie....
Honestly? The further along I watched, the more
erplexed I felt.... erplexed is the best way I can articulate "uneasiness". I feel it's ok for me to use the word "uneasiness" because that leaves room for me (and everybody else) for me to have the space to pause to allow the Holy Spirit to help me process the subject matter at hand.... Alright....
I see three points here:
1) UNIVERSAL principle of sowing and reaping
2) PROVISION for ministry work
3) HONOR for the minister for his labor
1. So up front, the principle of sowing and reaping, giving and receiving, that's a godly, biblical, UNIVERSAL principle THAT WORKS. It's universal in that WHOEVER DOES it: a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ or the heathen can apply that principle and it will return. Plenty of biblical scriptures that speak to this....
2. The Bible talks about in Mark 6 Jesus' instructions to the disciples about going to do ministry work: Verse 8 and following: "8These were his instructions: "Take nothing for the journey except a staff—no bread, no bag, no money in your belts. 9Wear sandals but not an extra tunic. 10Whenever you enter a house, stay there until you leave that town. 11And if any place will not welcome you or listen to you, shake the dust off your feet when you leave, as a testimony against them."
12They went out and preached that people should repent. 13They drove out many demons and anointed many sick people with oil and healed them." (NIV)
The point was that PEOPLE would give unto the disciples what they NEEDED to sustain them to minister to them and others. There are SEVERAL examples of this as well. And in some cases, the Lord DIRECTLY provided food and sustenance for the person.
3. When Pastor Dollar talked about the people giving the Bentley to him. Principle of sowing and reaping and honoring the minister for his service. 1 Timothy 5:17: "Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine."
With regard to Pastor Dollar not handing over documentation? Three of the four gospels record the following verse: Mark 12:17: "And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him." (Mark 12:17, Matt 22:21, and Luke 20:25).
I hope that they make right, sound, godly and healthy choices in this matter. The longer it continues, the more harmful things can get.
Honestly? The further along I watched, the more
erplexed I felt.... erplexed is the best way I can articulate "uneasiness". I feel it's ok for me to use the word "uneasiness" because that leaves room for me (and everybody else) for me to have the space to pause to allow the Holy Spirit to help me process the subject matter at hand.... Alright....I see three points here:
1) UNIVERSAL principle of sowing and reaping
2) PROVISION for ministry work
3) HONOR for the minister for his labor
1. So up front, the principle of sowing and reaping, giving and receiving, that's a godly, biblical, UNIVERSAL principle THAT WORKS. It's universal in that WHOEVER DOES it: a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ or the heathen can apply that principle and it will return. Plenty of biblical scriptures that speak to this....
2. The Bible talks about in Mark 6 Jesus' instructions to the disciples about going to do ministry work: Verse 8 and following: "8These were his instructions: "Take nothing for the journey except a staff—no bread, no bag, no money in your belts. 9Wear sandals but not an extra tunic. 10Whenever you enter a house, stay there until you leave that town. 11And if any place will not welcome you or listen to you, shake the dust off your feet when you leave, as a testimony against them."
12They went out and preached that people should repent. 13They drove out many demons and anointed many sick people with oil and healed them." (NIV)
The point was that PEOPLE would give unto the disciples what they NEEDED to sustain them to minister to them and others. There are SEVERAL examples of this as well. And in some cases, the Lord DIRECTLY provided food and sustenance for the person.
3. When Pastor Dollar talked about the people giving the Bentley to him. Principle of sowing and reaping and honoring the minister for his service. 1 Timothy 5:17: "Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine."
With regard to Pastor Dollar not handing over documentation? Three of the four gospels record the following verse: Mark 12:17: "And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him." (Mark 12:17, Matt 22:21, and Luke 20:25).
I hope that they make right, sound, godly and healthy choices in this matter. The longer it continues, the more harmful things can get.
See, those of 'us' who 'know', the principles and 'exercise' the principles and 'live' the principles .... *sigh*......... 'we' know.Whewww.... Shimmie....
Honestly? The further along I watched, the more
I see three points here:
1) UNIVERSAL principle of sowing and reaping
2) PROVISION for ministry work
3) HONOR for the minister for his labor
1. So up front, the principle of sowing and reaping, giving and receiving, that's a godly, biblical, UNIVERSAL principle THAT WORKS. It's universal in that WHOEVER DOES it: a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ or the heathen can apply that principle and it will return. Plenty of biblical scriptures that speak to this....
2. The Bible talks about in Mark 6 Jesus' instructions to the disciples about going to do ministry work: Verse 8 and following: "8These were his instructions: "Take nothing for the journey except a staff—no bread, no bag, no money in your belts. 9Wear sandals but not an extra tunic. 10Whenever you enter a house, stay there until you leave that town. 11And if any place will not welcome you or listen to you, shake the dust off your feet when you leave, as a testimony against them."
12They went out and preached that people should repent. 13They drove out many demons and anointed many sick people with oil and healed them." (NIV)
The point was that PEOPLE would give unto the disciples what they NEEDED to sustain them to minister to them and others. There are SEVERAL examples of this as well. And in some cases, the Lord DIRECTLY provided food and sustenance for the person.
3. When Pastor Dollar talked about the people giving the Bentley to him. Principle of sowing and reaping and honoring the minister for his service. 1 Timothy 5:17: "Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine."
With regard to Pastor Dollar not handing over documentation? Three of the four gospels record the following verse: Mark 12:17: "And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him." (Mark 12:17, Matt 22:21, and Luke 20:25).
I hope that they make right, sound, godly and healthy choices in this matter. The longer it continues, the more harmful things can get.
But as you said above, 'uneasy'. RR, that's how I'm feeling, 'uneasy'. Why? Because I know that there's a worm in the apple. Why? Because it's human nature. AND...because it is what it is, when someone gets money that has never had money, they do things with it that are 'unexplainable' to those looking for blood.
If I'm not making sense, it's only because I'm guarding my words (somewhat). I'm on my way for my second cup of coffee for today. It's been hours since my last...
.I have to PM you (briefly) okay?
Evolving78
Well-Known Member
Well I'll say this, .... I decided I'm not going to say anything.
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Shortdub, I love your 'short' reply...that speaks volumes... You 'dubbed' it short and sweet... 
RR....thanks for the 'balance'. I mean it sis. 'We' know the principles that still work in God's kingdom And just like you said, it works for all who practice them.
Southernbella.
Well-Known Member
ITA with all three of your points. I've said similar things on this forum before, but it wasn't received very well coming from me.
I think you just have that gift.
I didn't see the special, so I can't comment on that, but like you, I hope all involved consider their appearance and make the right choice so that it doesn't cause anyone to stumble.
ITA with all three of your points. I've said similar things on this forum before, but it wasn't received very well coming from me.
I didn't see the special, so I can't comment on that, but like you, I hope all involved consider their appearance and make the right choice so that it doesn't cause anyone to stumble.
This is what I'm hoping as well (@ the bolded). But I don't feel it's there.
*sigh* I feel very 'uneasy' about this entire investigation with Creflo. It's almost like I 'know' it's coming. The 'it' being what 'it' is.... We just have to do what we know to do...stay in 'prayer'.
Pastor Dollar was on CNN when this thing first broke and he said that before he left his church he had them put all of the financial records. They were out and ready to be looked at. At the end of the interview the 2 anchors pointed out that while all the pastors that were mentioned in the investigation were asked to come on the program Pastor Dollar was the only one who accepted. This made me feel proud of him for stepping up and accepting the investigation. I thought well then maybe he has nothing to hide. Fast forward to now and he has changed his mind about sharing his financial records. I am disappointed because he has done a complete 360 with his views on the situation. I am trying not to be jugdemental but this really bothers me and when in the CNN interview that one of them owns a $14,000 toilet really made me feel bad for the entire body of Christ. Things like this makes me pray and draw closer to God. I just pray that things turn out well for all the parties invovled and that it does not discourage others. It just makes me sad.
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Lissa0821
Well-Known Member
I have been a member of World Changers Church International for the past 11 years and I will always praise God for appointing me to sit under the teachings of l Creflo Dollar as my Pastor, my Prophet of God in these last days. I usually don’t engage in conversations that question the integrity of my Pastor’s character or actions because I fully understand people (Christians or not) hear what they want to hear and believe what they want to believe. I also know that what is shown in the news media is not the Gospel but oftentimes a negative report that is perceived as "the truth" by the masses who tune in day after day. The actual letter sent to Senator Grassley detailing the reasons why the information was not submitted is located on the World Changers website for all to see.
http://www.creflodollarministries.org/Public/AboutUs/Grassley.aspx
http://www.creflodollarministries.org/Public/AboutUs/Grassley.aspx
envybeauty
New Member
Interesting thread. RR, I like your three point above.
Nice & Wavy
Well-Known Member
Hi Lissa, glad you are here.
ETA: I have also just read the letter and I have to say that I have never seen nor heard about this letter on any of the reporting news stations. Thank you for sharing.
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Yes, as N&W said, I appreciate you posting. Seeing your post made me curious as to how I might react/respond if my pastor was under such scrutiny, deserved or not. Actually, this happened (on a smaller scale) where my pastor was accused of some stuff (after the church made a major move to Detroit) some years ago.... It might have been a bigger story if the internet was as popular as it is now....
The story is (sort of) bigger than just one church and one pastor: it is part of a larger attack, if you will, on the body of Christ. The attack that seeks to discredit the faith.... Sometimes the battle is not ours, it's the Lord's. Sometimes the battle is our own (from within) and we have to fight the good fight of faith...with even more force....
Nice & Wavy
Well-Known Member
The same with my old church. That's not the reason I'm not still there though...just was my time to move on.
I have to laugh because for one, the story was SO FAR-FETCHED, it was impossible for it to happen. And two, NOBODY outside of my family asked me anything about it directly because they knew they would get CHECKED.... for real...
The story died a quick death....it was put out to discredit them before they hit the scene and it didn't work....
envybeauty
New Member
if Jesus commands that we render to caesar what belongs to caesar, then how would this all play out if caesar (congress) changed to laws to take more of what belongs to caesar.
if churches were to lose their nonprofit status and had to pay taxes, what justification would these pastors have for closing their books.
also, Creflo made a statement at WCC in NY that the money he gets is from his book sales and intellectual property rights. he stated that he does not get one dime from the church. is it true?
if churches were to lose their nonprofit status and had to pay taxes, what justification would these pastors have for closing their books.
also, Creflo made a statement at WCC in NY that the money he gets is from his book sales and intellectual property rights. he stated that he does not get one dime from the church. is it true?
Nice & Wavy
Well-Known Member
I think it would be helpful to highlight two points: even though this is a relatively new phenomenon, it does exist that 1) church pastors do have business interests and entities beyond their local church that are income-generating, including book publishing, movies, shoe stores (my pastor had one in Detroit), so on and so forth; and
2) thanks to electronic media, that some church pastors do have audiences with folk who may NEVER cross the church doors and are interested in their literature.
I think thanks to the Constitution, or Declaration of Independence, the separation of church and state will remain intact. In other words, CHURCHES would not lose their non-profit status. What might be open to legislative inquiry is the tax status of the non-church entity that a pastor might (legally) classify him/herself.... So even if some of these pastors have legitimately been able to utilize certain tax classifications and are protected somewhat based on their vocational status, I think part of the motivation for these investigations has less to do with "protecting the poor church folk" and more about wanting to tap into the large amounts of monies being generated through these unique entities across the board.
With all that said, it still doesn't change what the Word says about rendering to whom and thus and so....
envybeauty
New Member
i see your point.
SmartyPants
New Member
Without knowing the full story, I'd be willing to believe that this is true. He has a large audience. If people who watch him on TV alone bought his books, I can see him making a small fortune on the books alone.
I'm in New Orleans. At some point, Paul Morton of Greater St. Stephens stopped taking a salary from the church and started accepting voluntary "pastor's offerings" only. Some suggest that it wasn't really voluntary if you wanted to stay in his good graces, but that's on the giver not on him.
And shimmie... you have a really small head. When I first saw that pic, I assumed it was your baby.
divya
Well-Known Member
Personally, I do not agree with this prosperity gospel.
This statement makes me wonder if he has opened his eyes to see the state of the world...that so many people are poor through no fault of their own, yet follow the Lord with all their heart and mind. The Devil is busy, and people will suffer for Christ's name sake. Let it be known that there are poor people in this world who will remain that way and will be in the kingdom of God.
One of our elders recently went to Pakistan where Christians are in the minority and you want to talk about poverty and suffering...but on fire for Christ! It has nothing to do with them knowing better, but rather those who against them following Jesus. (the 2 other members with whom he went are wanted "Dead or Alive" for thousands of rupees for being Christians)
Luke 6:20 - And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God.
Let the apostle Paul tell it:
I Cor 4:10-12 - We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised. Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwelling place; And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:
Read the Bible? And so if you are not homeless, that means you are not poor? Two facts about Jesus for those who read the Bible: Jesus was born in a stable, in a manger. Jesus was the son of a carpenter, not a wealthy profession.
What about these verses?
Matt. 8:19-20 - And a certain scribe came, and said unto him, Master, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest. And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.
2 Cor. 8:9 - For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich. (So is He talking about us having earthly riches because of His sacrifice or being spiritually rich?)
2 Corinthians 6:9-10 - As unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed. As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things. (Well, this answers the question above - spiritual riches!)
First of all, it has NOTHING to do with 'black' anything. Further, the focus should be on honoring GOD.
James 5:1-5 - Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you. Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten. Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days. Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth.Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter.
Does this mean that we cannot or ought not have any money or live well? No. However, the focus should not be on riches. There may be times that we will have virtually nothing in earthly riches but God has told us that He will supply all our needs. He may also allow us to go through these things to perfect our character and let us be a witness to others. Look at poverty around the world that is due to man's sinfulness - so many innocent suffer. God has made a place in heaven for those poor people who follow Him. Remember it easier for them to make it than the rich man...the donkey can get through the eye of the needle first remember? I wonder why? Because the focus of so many of the rich is in this world...not in the world to come.
Last set of verses...
1 Timothy 6:3-12 - If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself. But godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition. For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness. Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
This statement makes me wonder if he has opened his eyes to see the state of the world...that so many people are poor through no fault of their own, yet follow the Lord with all their heart and mind. The Devil is busy, and people will suffer for Christ's name sake. Let it be known that there are poor people in this world who will remain that way and will be in the kingdom of God.
One of our elders recently went to Pakistan where Christians are in the minority and you want to talk about poverty and suffering...but on fire for Christ! It has nothing to do with them knowing better, but rather those who against them following Jesus. (the 2 other members with whom he went are wanted "Dead or Alive" for thousands of rupees for being Christians)
Luke 6:20 - And he lifted up his eyes on his disciples, and said, Blessed be ye poor: for yours is the kingdom of God.
Let the apostle Paul tell it:
I Cor 4:10-12 - We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised. Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwelling place; And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:
Read the Bible? And so if you are not homeless, that means you are not poor? Two facts about Jesus for those who read the Bible: Jesus was born in a stable, in a manger. Jesus was the son of a carpenter, not a wealthy profession.
What about these verses?
Matt. 8:19-20 - And a certain scribe came, and said unto him, Master, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest. And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.
2 Cor. 8:9 - For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich. (So is He talking about us having earthly riches because of His sacrifice or being spiritually rich?)
2 Corinthians 6:9-10 - As unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed. As sorrowful, yet alway rejoicing; as poor, yet making many rich; as having nothing, and yet possessing all things. (Well, this answers the question above - spiritual riches!)
First of all, it has NOTHING to do with 'black' anything. Further, the focus should be on honoring GOD.
James 5:1-5 - Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you. Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten. Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days. Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth.Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter.
Does this mean that we cannot or ought not have any money or live well? No. However, the focus should not be on riches. There may be times that we will have virtually nothing in earthly riches but God has told us that He will supply all our needs. He may also allow us to go through these things to perfect our character and let us be a witness to others. Look at poverty around the world that is due to man's sinfulness - so many innocent suffer. God has made a place in heaven for those poor people who follow Him. Remember it easier for them to make it than the rich man...the donkey can get through the eye of the needle first remember? I wonder why? Because the focus of so many of the rich is in this world...not in the world to come.
Last set of verses...
1 Timothy 6:3-12 - If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings, Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself. But godliness with contentment is great gain. For we brought nothing into this world, and it is certain we can carry nothing out.And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.But they that will be rich fall into temptation and a snare, and into many foolish and hurtful lusts, which drown men in destruction and perdition. For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows. But thou, O man of God, flee these things; and follow after righteousness, godliness, faith, love, patience, meekness. Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life, whereunto thou art also called, and hast professed a good profession before many witnesses.
@ Paul Morton...there are two Pastors here in Maryland that I know of personally who do not take a salary and in addition, they also support the Church with their own personal funds. One of the Pastors is mine.
Our Church is 'small' (a little over 100 members) but it's always growing. (My former Church was Mega)
Howver, the Love and the powerful Annointing on my current Pastors (Pastor and Wife) is very high. I know that you know this in Ministry, that the expenses for upholding a Church are high. In comparison to the expenses that it takes just to manage our personal homes (gas, electric, water, phone, mortage/rent, etc.). It takes enormous funds to maintain a Ministry (big or small). We have 100% Givers and Tithers in our Ministry, yet Pastor cheerfully pays for any and all of the overflow. He doesn't take a salary from the Church, for keeping is flowing is where his heart is.
And now, young lady, about my head
Lord knows you have the appropriate screen name... "SmartyPants" I love you angel
You always make me laugh; and that's a good thing. To hear my family tell it, I have a 'big hid'....
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