Deep conditioning or doing a protein treatment before washing hair on dry hair

[Lilmama1011]

Is it pointless? I see some on YouTube doing that now so they don't have to get in the shower more than once. But I see it being a waste. If you have build up, the protein wouldn't do it's thing nor the deep conditioning right?

 

[MileHighDiva]

http://www.thenaturalhavenbloom.com/2012/10/deep-conditioning-dry-hair-wet-hair-or.html

http://www.thenaturalhavenbloom.com/2011/05/before-you-shampoo-conditioner-or-oil.html

According, the JC it's a waste. She's a scientist. Read the two links above.

 

[Lilmama1011]

http://www.thenaturalhavenbloom.com/2012/10/deep-conditioning-dry-hair-wet-hair-or.html

http://www.thenaturalhavenbloom.com/2011/05/before-you-shampoo-conditioner-or-oil.html

According, the JC it's a waste. She's a scientist. Read the two links above.

That was very helpful thanks MileHighDiva

 

[Lilmama1011]

Doing it is pointless and better if you want to prepoo with oil

 

[naturalmanenyc]

I deep condition with Aubrey GPB on dry hair and my hair feels great after I shampoo the DC out. I feel the effects from the deep condition for about a week.

 

[MileHighDiva]

Doing it is pointless and better if you want to prepoo with oil

Preferably, EVCO it penetrates the hair strand.

 

[virtuenow]

Well JC is wrong. Scientist or not, she's been wrong on several things. I also deep condition w/AO GPB on dry hair. It get maximum conditioning and my hair feels much better than DCing later after washing. We've had this discussion/debate before and came to the conclusion that hair absorbs DC better when the hair is not wet (i.e. not full w/water molecules), it leaves more room to penetrate and hold more DC. Of course you can condition afterwards, check out the directions for using AO Gpb. I, however, have moved out the "middle man" and only focus on shampooing my scalp. So the issue of "negative charged"- etc does not come into play.

 

[Angelicus]

I like to deep condition sometimes before shampooing and i feel (and see) the effects of it for at least a week.

I actually recommend that if someone have fine hair that they deep condition first.

Listen to your hair.

Sent from my phone using LHCF app.

 

[Babygrowth]

I like to deep condition sometimes before shampooing and i feel (and see) the effects of it for at least a week.

I actually recommend that if someone have fine hair that they deep condition first.

Listen to your hair.

Sent from my phone using LHCF app.

This is true. My hair detangles easier and is softer than a pillowy cloud when I DC first. I have fine and med fine strands. There are times that I double DC because my hair loves it/needs it. I use to think it was pointless until I tried it. Now I don't knock anything. This was the best discovery of my hair journey.

 

[virtuenow]

This is true. My hair detangles easier and is softer than a pillowy cloud when I DC first. I have fine and med fine strands. There are times that I double DC because my hair loves it/needs it. I use to think it was pointless until I tried it. Now I don't knock anything. This was the best discovery of my hair journey.

I likewise, thought pre-wash DC's were absolutely pointless! No one could tell me otherwise until I tried it MYSELF. Then it was undeniable that my hair was holding much more moisture than before.

 

[AmiJay]

I dc with protein before I wash my hair because my hair is protein sensitive. If I leave it on too long, my hair will act up. So I dc with protein, wash, then dc with moisture and leave it on overnight.

 

[Nonie]

I deep condition with Aubrey GPB on dry hair and my hair feels great after I shampoo the DC out. I feel the effects from the deep condition for about a week.

Well JC is wrong. Scientist or not, she's been wrong on several things. I also deep condition w/AO GPB on dry hair. It get maximum conditioning and my hair feels much better than DCing later after washing. We've had this discussion/debate before and came to the conclusion that hair absorbs DC better when the hair is not wet (i.e. not full w/water molecules), it leaves more room to penetrate and hold more DC. Of course you can condition afterwards, check out the directions for using AO Gpb. I, however, have moved out the "middle man" and only focus on shampooing my scalp. So the issue of "negative charged"- etc does not come into play.

Thank you. I would like to inform JC that the people who make a lot of hair products are scientists too and the directions they put on them are not just for decoration but tested and confirmed to be effective.

I too use Aubrey's GPB and as a DC I apply it to dry hair. As far as product being on hair and so preventing its absorption, that's not a problem I have to worry about since my hair usually bare. I don't use any leave-ins once I wash and dry my hair. It's bare and ready to receive whatever conditioning properties a DC with GPB gives.

The directions are to shampoo afterward and then follow with another conditioner...so that's not news.

Shampooing after a DC is nothing new. DCs are supposed to penetrated strands not sit on top where they will be shampooed off. So yes, shampooing after a DC is the norm for some products...and then you are to follow that with a moisturizing conditioner so your hair is still left with a coating of conditioner even though you shampooed the DC.

It is not a waste to shampoo after a DC. Methinks the shampooing takes off any excess product that your hair could not use/did not need so that you don't have unnecessary buildup that prevents good moisturizing of your strands. Of course I would not do this if the product I am using doesn't say to do so. Every product's directions are there to guide you on how to get the best benefit from the product. So DCing with Aubrey's GPB on dry hair is the best way to get DCing benefits from the product which is why you're adviced to do so.

If I were heavy handed with leave-in products like people who pile on stuff all day every day, then I would shampoo my hair first and airdry my hair bare in Celie braids. And THEN I would DC on dry.

 

[LaidBak]

The only way my hair tolerates a protein treatment (without subsequent breakage) is if I apply it to dry hair. I don't use product in my hair so buildup is never an issue.

 

[Lilmama1011]

Preferably, EVCO it penetrates the hair strand.

yes and that's what I have been sealing with anyway, just saturated hair, put satin scarf off and going to shampoo in the day time

 

[Lilmama1011]

here I am back to square one again.... i prepooed with heat and then shampoo and the dc which is basically two dc, i will see how my hair responds with the oil pre poo

 

[Amarilles]

JC isn't biased though. She has also posted people's varying experiences before too.

http://www.thenaturalhavenbloom.com/2010/07/should-you-deep-condition-before.html

Scientifically it makes better sense to do it last, but in the end one should do what the hair responds to best. It's kinda like hair thriving on LOC when scientifically LCO (with a waterbased C) makes better sense.

She's not really incorrect. If the molecules are small enough they will penetrate (and this cannot be washed away with shampoo) but most conditioning agents do not penetrate, they just coat the strands and those will get washed away by shampoo. If the hair responds better to DCing on dirty hair then hey...c'est la vie but that doesn't prove the logistics of it as incorrect, in my opinion.

 

[Nonie]

JC isn't biased though. She has also posted people's varying experiences before too.

http://www.thenaturalhavenbloom.com/2010/07/should-you-deep-condition-before.html

Scientifically it makes better sense to do it last, but in the end one should do what the hair responds to best. It's kinda like hair thriving on LOC when scientifically LCO (with a waterbased C) makes better sense.

She's not really incorrect. If the molecules are small enough they will penetrate (and this cannot be washed away with shampoo) but most conditioning agents do not penetrate, they just coat the strands and those will get washed away by shampoo. If the hair responds better to DCing on dirty hair then hey...c'est la vie but that doesn't prove the logistics of it as incorrect, in my opinion.

Well DCing is not possible unless molecules are small enough to penetrate strands. That is why not every conditioner can work as a DEEP conditioner coz some conditioners just coat the outside of hair.

And saying that DCing then shampooing removes the conditioner is clearly wrong because shampoos work on the surface of hair. And if her stmt were correct, then we who do this would not be able to boast of the benefits we have gotten. What's more, the scientists who make products that call for DCing on dry or shampooing after a strengthening treatment would not advice folks to do that unless they had designed their product to work well like that. If it didn't work, they would not be in business. So clearly there is some science she doesn't get.

IMO what makes sense is following directions of the product you are using. The ONLY way GPB works as a DEEP CONDITIONER is when it is applied to dry hair and left on for 15 minutes. And no one said hair had to be dirty. If one uses layers of product so hair is a dirt magnet, then one can wash hair to remove the layer of filth, let it fully dry, then do the DC on dry on clean hair. Easy peasy!

 

[Amarilles]

I said dirty because I think most people who DC on dry hair would do so on unwashed hair, but I honestly wouldn't know and I'm not sure what the product recommends.

Aqua, cetyl alcohol, alcohol denat. (38b, lavender*), aloe barbadensis leaf juice*, triticum vulgare (wheat) germ oil, milk protein, glycerin, myroxylon pereirae (balsam Peru) oil, rosmarinus officinalis (rosemary) leaf oil*, brassica campestris/aleurites fordi copolymer, citrus grandis (grapefruit) extract, salvia officinalis (sage) oil*, glycoprotein, tocopheryl acetate, hamamelis virginiana (witch hazel) water, equisetum hyemale (horsetail) extract, tussilago farfara (coltsfoot) leaf extract, urtica dioica (nettle) extract, ascorbic acid, glycine soja (soybean) oil, daucus carota sativa (carrot) root extract, beta-carotene.
*Organic

I was looking at the ingredients above for the AO GPB...but is that a deep conditioner even? Milk protein has big ol' molecules and those oils and extracts do not penetrate either. Water is the only thing I see on here that would enter. (And Off topic but I'm a little surprised to see alcohol denatured as the 3rd ingredient??)

And precisely...shampoo works on the surface of hair and so do (non-penetrating) conditioning agents. As they're sitting there coating the strands, a surface-working cleansing agent or detergent will remove them easily and that's what shampoo is designed to do. It makes "better sense" DCing last, I don't think that dry hair/wet hair matters though. If the molecules are small enough it will penetrate regardless and I don't think JC has ever said the contrary. In the end I think we all agree to do "what works."

 

[Nonie]

I said dirty because I think most people who DC on dry hair would do so on unwashed hair, but I honestly wouldn't know and I'm not sure what the product recommends.

I was looking at the ingredients above for the AO GPB...but is that a deep conditioner even? Milk protein has big ol' molecules and those oils and extracts do not penetrate either. Water is the only thing I see on here that would enter. (And Off topic but I'm a little surprised to see alcohol denatured as the 3rd ingredient??)

And precisely...shampoo works on the surface of hair and so do (non-penetrating) conditioning agents. As they're sitting there coating the strands, a surface-working cleansing agent or detergent will remove them easily and that's what shampoo is designed to do. It makes "better sense" DCing last, I don't think that dry hair/wet hair matters though. If the molecules are small enough it will penetrate regardless and I don't think JC has ever said the contrary. In the end I think we all agree to do "what works."

Oh it does make a difference! Wet hair would dilute the GPB and make it work as a regular conditioner which is precisely why the directions to use it as a regular conditioner involve applying it to wet hair.

JC wrote in her article that water interferes with oil penetrating strands, so I don't know why the same cannot apply to GPB. Also, I have never been one to judge a product's effectiveness by the ingredients. If I did and came to your conclusions, I would dismiss GPB as ineffective as a DC and would have missed out on its benefits.

Theory has to match practical use, and your theory based on your understanding of individual ingredients doesn't match the results we get from practical use. It is kinda like how folks clutch pearls in horror at the use of petrolatum on skin when years of use have not harmed anyone and scientists have even proven it to be good in maintaining skin's moisture content. It is also probably why people who follow Paula Begoun with her ingredient-obsessed self find themselves being pulled this way and that way because ingredients are not the whole story. You could give two people the same ingredients to bake you a cake and not get the same cake from both.

Another thing to consider, protein treatments are supposed to patch up tears on the outside of hair, so perhaps that explains any molecules that don't penetrate. Ceramides work as glue so help bind the protein to hair, which is what wheat germ does. So perhaps both small and large molecules are needed in a good reconstructor so moisture can penetrate and then the large molecules seal.

I am not a scientist so I cannot explain or understand how all the parts work together or why you can shampoo and not mess up the effects--and really don't care to because the proof is in the pudding. It's kinda like how I cannot explain why some face exercise programs work so well and others don't, nor can I tell you what effect each exercise I do has. I let the experts figure that out and trust their direction because that is not my forte. I then decide if a product works by the results I see.

I see so many people obsessed with ingredients always having issues because they mistakenly believe that good ingredients always give good products. Not necessarily so. There has to be some harmony between the products so none of their usefulness is thwarted by the others.

But like you say, we can agree to disagree. I just hope people aren't so gullible as to just trust the words of a scientist or blogger or poster w/ questioning things or testing them for themselves.

 

[Amarilles]

I don't think JC actually says anything negative about DCing on wet or dry hair...she says oil (as a prepoo) is best on dry hair and that dry DCing is fine but she believes shampooing makes better sense last.

I personally cannot think of a big difference between DCing with dry hair or wet. DCs usually contain water as the first ingredient, that is at least 50% water. The hair will get wet/moist with the DC on. I'm not sure I agree with wet hair causing such a dilution that it would make an already water-infused product work differently but...weirder things have happened. Lol.

Earlier Nonie you mentioned small molecules indicating a deep conditioner because it penetrates the cortex. I agree with that wholeheartedly, it's why I was wondering about the ingredients on the AOGPB. To me this product sounds more like a conditioner (ingredients that work on the surface) and not a DC. In any case...these terms can be so subjective, companies and marketing teams can call any product as anything. I find that many condishes with penetrating ingredients like coconut oil and hydrolyzed protein don't call themselves a "deep conditioner" and vice versa. It really is very much up to us to decide what works or not, companies will market in whatever way they see fit (I believe).

Uhm, and I think earlier I misread this thread as a "DC first or last" question. Sorry!

 

[virtuenow]

here I am back to square one again.... i prepooed with heat and then shampoo and the dc which is basically two dc, i will see how my hair responds with the oil pre poo

I believe the exact opposite of JC. Oil as a a pre-poo on dry hair would be almost pointless-- especially evco. I've read enough studies/reports on oils ability to penetrate wet vs. dry hair. On dry hair, it just sits there. Evco responds much better when used on wet hair. Leading yet another person to the "Moisture Drenched Pre-poo": http://www.longhaircareforum.com/showthread.php?t=509482

 

[MileHighDiva]

Ladies, we will have to agree to disagree. EVCO penetrates the strand and prevents hygral fatigue. JC, is not the only person that supports that. Pre-pooing with EVCO has been one of the best things for my hairs health.

There's more than one way to the top of the mountain, and no two heads are the same.

 

[OriginalCrownandGlory]

I am deep conditioning on dry hair today (first time). I am then going to rinse out, oil rinse, and then co-wash and see how that works on my leave out. I don't intend to do a full wash with shampoo until next weekend. I have yet to find a staple moisturizing deep conditioner. I am hoping by changing the order of things I will yield better results.

 

[Nonie]

I don't think JC actually says anything negative about DCing on wet or dry hair...she says oil (as a prepoo) is best on dry hair and that dry DCing is fine but she believes shampooing makes better sense last.

I personally cannot think of a big difference between DCing with dry hair or wet. DCs usually contain water as the first ingredient, that is at least 50% water. The hair will get wet/moist with the DC on. I'm not sure I agree with wet hair causing such a dilution that it would make an already water-infused product work differently but...weirder things have happened. Lol.

Earlier Nonie you mentioned small molecules indicating a deep conditioner because it penetrates the cortex. I agree with that wholeheartedly, it's why I was wondering about the ingredients on the AOGPB. To me this product sounds more like a conditioner (ingredients that work on the surface) and not a DC. In any case...these terms can be so subjective, companies and marketing teams can call any product as anything. I find that many condishes with penetrating ingredients like coconut oil and hydrolyzed protein don't call themselves a "deep conditioner" and vice versa. It really is very much up to us to decide what works or not, companies will market in whatever way they see fit (I believe).

Uhm, and I think earlier I misread this thread as a "DC first or last" question. Sorry!

Yes, I did mention molecules being small for deep conditioning to occur but I also mentioned that since strengthening products need patching up of holes on the surface of the strands aka in the cuticle, that perhaps this is why a reconstructor could have large molecules (in addition to the small ones) because they do not need to penetrate. I also stated that I don't understand how the magic works but common sense does tell me that "deep conditioning" means more than surface coating. Granted anyone can plaster a label on a product and it not be what it claims to be, but that is where experience becomes the best teacher and so far, GPB is a wonderful DEEP CONDITIONER.

Saying that some products that contain small oil molecules that penetrate hair don't have the DC label on them could be coz they do not deep condition. See, this is why looking at specific ingredients and assuming their existence means one thing may be the wrong way to look at products. JC said that water affects how oils are absorbed by hair. Maybe the products have so much water that these small molecules don't get absorbed. Maybe the product has other things that make the small molecules not easily accessible. I dunno (I did say that earlier, right?). I just know that the DCing method of GPB works on MY hair and that of many. And I know that if I were to leave a product like Trader Joe's Nourish Spa on my dry hair all day, I would not get the same effects I get from GPB's DCing method because TJNS is not a DCing product. In fact, would you know(!)... I actually know this for a fact because I've done it. I wasn't trying to DC but to detangle my hair and had the product on my hair longer than usual.

I never let my hair tangle so detangling isn't part of my regimen, but in 2008, I made the mistake of breaking Nonie's rules and after wearing a twist-out all day, I went to bed with loose hair--a big nono in my life (Remember I don't use leave-in products) and that was the one time I had to work tangles out of my hair coz I woke up to a rat's nest. @*Happily Me* had shared a tip of detangling on dry using conditioner so I applied TJNS to my dry hair and painstakingly used my fingers to separate my strands. The product was on my hair for a long time. When I washed it off, my hair was OK...but not the same way my hair feels when I rinse off GPB after DCing on dry. I don't know what the ingredients of Nourish Spa are but I do know, not just coz it doesn't say so on the bottle but also from experience, that a DC it most certainly isn't.

Percentage of water in a product does make a difference whether you think so or not. That is why Humectress conditioner and Humectress mask which is for DCing have different textures, the latter being thicker which would appear to mean less water. Also without even understanding the science behind this, anyone can tell you that applying lotion to wet skin will not give the same moisturizing effect as applying the lotion on skin that isn't wet. The water molecules would be in the way of the goodies in the lotion being absorbed by your skin not to mention that application would not be even as the lotion molecules would slide over the water molecules and only get to some parts and not as evenly as it would if there was no water. Also you don't have to believe it but if water didn't make a difference, then there would not be specific instructions for DCing with a product like GPB that state that there should not be any water. GPB does have water but the right amount for it to work as a deep conditioner. You add more water, you dilute it and make it less effective as a DC hence the reason why on wet hair it works like a regular conditioner.

As for what JC said or did not say, she did say in response to Q: Can you condition first and then shampoo? this:

Yes you can but you will be removing conditioner that stuck to the surface of the hair from the initial conditioning process.
​

If that were true then conditioners like Nexxus Emergencee and GPB which have to be used that way for DCing purposes would be useless and one would have to use them again after shampooing to put back what was removed. Clearly shampooing doesn't remove the positive effects they just gave hair before shampooing coz one doesn't need to do use them again but rather one is supposed to use a regular conditioner after that. And since it is believed that protein treatments fuse into the hair and fill gaps in the cuticle ie on the surface, then surely these products would not be doing their job if shampooing was removing them since they are supposed to deposit protein on the hair where it's to provide strengthening. But they do do their job. Which means there's something deeper than JC's ken about how they work which cannot be understood just by looking at the ingredients or just by assuming it's as simple as "shampoo removes everything".

Anyway, can we agree to disagree as we decided to before and let everyone test the products for themselves and make up their minds from experience instead of just simply buying into what someone wrote? Unless JC stands for the Jesus Christ I know then she isn't a flawless guru so she can't be 100% correct on everything. And since my experience proves what she says isn't true, then for me she is indeed incorrect on this matter.

 

[Nonie]

I am deep conditioning on dry hair today (first time). I am then going to rinse out, oil rinse, and then co-wash and see how that works on my leave out. I don't intend to do a full wash with shampoo until next weekend. I have yet to find a staple moisturizing deep conditioner. I am hoping by changing the order of things I will yield better results.

OriginalCrownandGlory, while you do that, do keep in mind that every product has directions of how it is to be used because using it differently will not be as effective as using it the way it was created to be used.

So while you DC on dry, keep an open mind that if you're not using GPB or HSR or some products whose directions say you are supposed to do this, your results may not be as effective as they would be if you followed directions of that product. You may get lucky and discover something new, but if it doesn't work, don't assume folks are wrong. Realize user error is to blame and try it only with a product for which the directions call for applying to dry hair as a pre-poo.

 

[OriginalCrownandGlory]

I have been using the products as directed with mediocre results, so I am all for trying it this way. If it doesn't work out then when I am finished with the conditioners I have I will try new ones. My goal is to find what works best for me.

ETA...I am done with my conditioning session. My hair feels nice the true test will be once my hair has dried. So far so good.

 

[naturalmanenyc]

All this Aubrey talk made me realize I need to replenish. In case anyone is interested, vitaglo.com has Aubrey Organics on sale for $6.68. I just bought a few bottles:

GPB Glycogen Protein Balancing Conditioner
Blue Camomile Hydrating Conditioner
White Camellia Ultra-Smoothing Conditioner
Island Naturals Replenishing Conditioner

 

[Babygrowth]

I believe the exact opposite of JC. Oil as a a pre-poo on dry hair would be almost pointless-- especially evco. I've read enough studies/reports on oils ability to penetrate wet vs. dry hair. On dry hair, it just sits there. Evco responds much better when used on wet hair. Leading yet another person to the "Moisture Drenched Pre-poo": http://www.longhaircareforum.com/showthread.php?t=509482

I cannot use EVCO on dry hair as a prepoo. Only to seal... I can't do any prepoo with oil really unless its specifically for/on the scalp.

 

[LaidBak]

I believe the exact opposite of JC. Oil as a a pre-poo on dry hair would be almost pointless-- especially evco. I've read enough studies/reports on oils ability to penetrate wet vs. dry hair. On dry hair, it just sits there. Evco responds much better when used on wet hair. Leading yet another person to the "Moisture Drenched Pre-poo": http://www.longhaircareforum.com/showthread.php?t=509482

Not commenting on anything related to JC as I have not been paying attention to that part of the thread. But....oil as a prepoo (especially EVCO) has a purpose. It prevents hygral fatigue. http://www.hairloss-research.org/UpdateTopicalCoconutOil5-08.html

 

[virtuenow]

naturalmanenyc how was Vitaglo's shipping/service. Did your products arrive? People were complaining a few months ago so I went elsewhere. I want to try vitaglo again if they are back on track w/timely shipping and good customer service.