What causes waxy hair?

[bb09]

Hi guys! I've missed the board a bit. It's been a while since I've posted

I was wondering, what leads to gummy /waxy hair when wet?
I literally just chelated my hair (with very diluted shampoo), so it can't be buildup. My hair feels rubbery though. I get that after I shampoo; after I do oil rinses. Any ideas?

 

[blessedandlucky]

Do you use products with a lot of cones? For me, that causes my hair to feel gummy when wet. Clarifying usually helps. I've stopped ident cones again because I hate that feeling!



Sent from my iPhone using LHCF

 

[Myjourney2009]

chelating and clarifying are done for different reason.

A shampoo can be clarifier but not a chelator and vice versa.

Pretty much any clear shampoo can be used to clarify.


Why did you dilute your shampoo? Use it regular strength becasue you obvioulsy did not remove all of the product off your hair. Sometimes it takes 2 sudsings to remove all the product.

If your hair feels gummy it might be time for a shot of protein but be sure there is not product on your hair. Dont use a shampoo with cones

 

[darlingdiva]

chelating and clarifying are done for different reason.

A shampoo can be clarifier but not a chelator and vice versa.

Pretty much any clear shampoo can be used to clarify.


Why did you dilute your shampoo? Use it regular strength becasue you obvioulsy did not remove all of the product off your hair. Sometimes it takes 2 sudsings to remove all the product.

If your hair feels gummy it might be time for a shot of protein but be sure there is not product on your hair. Dont use a shampoo with cones

I agree with the bolded.

Also, you said that your hair felt waxy after the oil rinses. What kind of oil do you use? I believe I remember reading in the oil rinse thread that a light oil should be used to do oil rinses, and that the oil should be rinsed with warm water. Did you rinse the oil with warm water?

 

[bb09]

chelating and clarifying are done for different reason.

A shampoo can be clarifier but not a chelator and vice versa.

Pretty much any clear shampoo can be used to clarify.


Why did you dilute your shampoo? Use it regular strength becasue you obvioulsy did not remove all of the product off your hair. Sometimes it takes 2 sudsings to remove all the product.

If your hair feels gummy it might be time for a shot of protein but be sure there is not product on your hair. Dont use a shampoo with cones

Oh. Doesn't a chelator clarify hair as well? I diluted it (the redken cleansing cream shampoo), to avoid it stripping my hair.
I'll use it full strength next time then just to make sure everything's out

 

[bb09]

I agree with the bolded.

Also, you said that your hair felt waxy after the oil rinses. What kind of oil do you use? I believe I remember reading in the oil rinse thread that a light oil should be used to do oil rinses, and that the oil should be rinsed with warm water. Did you rinse the oil with warm water?

Thanks for the replies. darlingdiva blessedandlucky Myjourney2009
I used grapeseed oil to oil rinse.
(1)I used nexxus emergencee -which strengthened nothing.
(2)Rinsed the emergencee out, then did an oil rinse (with the grapeseed oil). (Oils) give my hair no slip.. My hair feels gummy/velcroey so it's kinda hard to apply the oils in the first place (difficult to part).
(3)Then I rinsed the oil out with hot water. Tbh it didn't rinse easily.
And used skala chocolate conditioner -it's perfect in consistency /for slip

blessedandlucky -I don't really use cones at all. I usually shampoo, (deep) condition, then leave condish in my hair. Sometimes I oil rinse, but in general, my hair isn't easy to do, between steps (like when I have to rinse the condish or even shampoo out of my hair)

 

[Myjourney2009]

bb09

When using protein treatments, the hair must be super clean.

Just a regular clear shampoo shampoo (vo5 works fine)and rinse (no detangling or conditioing shampoos eithier). your hair should feel product free. My test is after I rinse my I need to be able to feel the texture of fingerprints my finger tips. If my finger tips
feel smooth on any section of my head I do a nother shampoo sessoion and focus the shampoo there.


The protein needs to fill in where the cuticle is missing or else you just wasted your time.

 

[Tiye]

Conditioners have emulsifying waxes in them to bind the water and oil together. So they can cause build up as can styling products, oils, butters, etc. Everything you don't wash off stays in your hair and builds up over time. Use the shampoo full strength as needed. And also you might want to consider doing hot oil treatments instead of oil rinses.

 

[JJamiah]

Clarifying shampoo is just that to clarify, normal shampoo isn't made to clarify, it does have sulfates which clean but clarifying has a higher degree of detergents. Most companies try to make them now conditioning and clarifying due to the brillo feel it used to give consumers (and some still)

I would clarify with a good clarifying shampoo and use a pinch or two of baking soda leave for 2 minutes and rinse. Do this no more than twice and then proceed with your treatments and or DC.

Let us know how that goes.

 

[bb09]

@bb09

When using protein treatments, the hair must be super clean.

Just a regular clear shampoo shampoo (vo5 works fine)and rinse (no detangling or conditioing shampoos eithier). your hair should feel product free. My test is after I rinse my I need to be able to feel the texture of fingerprints my finger tips. If my finger tips
feel smooth on any section of my head I do a nother shampoo sessoion and focus the shampoo there.


The protein needs to fill in where the cuticle is missing or else you just wasted your time.

Thanks so much. I didn't know that.
I might use the redken cleansing cream (full strength) and just leave it on for longer, cos I don't have a clear shampoo.

 

[bb09]

Clarifying shampoo is just that to clarify, normal shampoo isn't made to clarify, it does have sulfates which clean but clarifying has a higher degree of detergents. Most companies try to make them now conditioning and clarifying due to the brillo feel it used to give consumers (and some still)

I would clarify with a good clarifying shampoo and use a pinch or two of baking soda leave for 2 minutes and rinse. Do this no more than twice and then proceed with your treatments and or DC.

Let us know how that goes.

Thanks JJamiah. I only used redken cleansing cream -which is a chelating sham. I don't have the bottle right here, but I think it was designed to remove mineral and product buildup. I know it says, leave on hair for 5-10 mins for excessive buildup, so I'll def leave it on my hair longer.

 

[bb09]

Tiye -thank you. I will def consider doing HOTs instead. They've worked in the past (very smooth hair when wet). Nothing gives me lasting moisture really, which is partly why I stopped doing them

Anyway, guys, should I do a hot oil treatment (oil prepoo) before clarifying? I still want clean hair, but I don't want it stripped -because it already loves to matt together and tangle

 

[darlingdiva]

@Tiye -thank you. I will def consider doing HOTs instead. They've worked in the past (very smooth hair when wet). Nothing gives me lasting moisture really, which is partly why I stopped doing them

Anyway, guys, should I do a hot oil treatment (oil prepoo) before clarifying? I still want clean hair, but I don't want it stripped -because it already loves to matt together and tangle

In this case, I would advise against it because you don't want to add anymore build-up to your hair.

Also, I agree with JJamiah about using an actual clarifying shampoo to wash your hair.

 

[ryanshope]

Courtesy of http://www.diaryofahairobsession.com/?p=2640


Ever wonder what the real difference was between a clarifying shampoo and a chelating shampoo? I did. I knew that they are both used to remove ‘stuff’ from the hair but when should one be used over the other or were they interchangeable? I needed answers to those questions and I decided to do a little research which I will share here in case anyone else has the same questions.

Clarifying
Clarifying is a deep cleansing. It is the process whereby you remove buildup from the surface of the hair. Buildup includes grease, silicones, product, sebum, and dirt. Clarifying products do not always have to be labeled as such to be effective. Products with acetic acid are effective clarifying agents. Some natural products that have good clarifying properties include baking soda and vinegar (apple cider vinegar is gentler than white vinegar).

How often should you clarify? It largely depends on several factors: the amount of product you use on your hair; whether you cowash instead of shampoo; whether your regime contains a lot of silicones etc. Once a month is normally sufficient for most people but if you notice that products that worked well before unexplicably stop working the same then you’re probably due for a clarifying treatment.

Chelating
While clarifying agents removes buildup on the surface of the hair, chelating agents improve rinseability by binding with metals and minerals and removing them from the hair. Chelating agents are useful for removing the metals in hard water and minerals/chemicals of chlorine water. Chelating products typically contain EDTA

 

[bb09]

ryanshope -Thank you so much. I'll have to work with what I have though, so I'll use the redken cleansing cream (chelating).. Do you know if chelating shampoos also clarify? Then I'll do an ACV final rinse -I'll use pH strips for that, just to make sure it isn't too acidic.

My other shampoos are soap based, and another has sulphates (taliah waajid black earth sham), so the redken cleansing cream might be my best bet

 

[Myjourney2009]

Thanks so much. I didn't know that.
I might use the redken cleansing cream (full strength) and just leave it on for longer, cos I don't have a clear shampoo.

That sounds like a plan. I just read the directions make sure to leave on at least 10 min.

According to the instructions your redken should do the job of clariying as long as you leave it on longer.

Like another poster said add some baking soda too it as well.

If you hair is difficult to move after washing apply whatever conditioner you will be using to the ends first and allow it to sit for a minute or so to make the hair pliable. After the min or so commence to applying it to the rest of your hair in sections making sure to tiene cuidad when seperating the hair.

ACV rinses donot clarify the hair all it does in assit in bringing down the ph of the hair while wet.


Also consider washing the hair in sections. part in 4 quads and wash each section seperately and put twist it and put a clip on it to help prevent tangles. Natural and long hair does better being washed like this/

There is no way I could wash my DD's natural hair all together that is asking for tangles.

 

[ryanshope]

ryanshope -Thank you so much. I'll have to work with what I have though, so I'll use the redken cleansing cream (chelating).. Do you know if chelating shampoos also clarify? Then I'll do an ACV final rinse -I'll use pH strips for that, just to make sure it isn't too acidic.

My other shampoos are soap based, and another has sulphates (taliah waajid black earth sham), so the redken cleansing cream might be my best bet

Hard to say, I would (no scientific or professional experience at all) think that the chelating shampoo removes EVERYTHING(film, mineral deposits, cones, oils) where as the clarifier removes SURFACE debris and film. So the chelating penetrates the cuticles, clarifiers don't IMO. ....

 

[divachyk]

@bb09 and @darlingdiva...oil rinsing should be rinsed off with hot water rather than warm water. Made that mistake. Never again. Hot water all the way to avoid waxy and oily feel.
http://www.longhaircareforum.com/showthread.php?t=150965
http://www.longhaircareforum.com/showpost.php?p=12864671&postcount=616

 

[bb09]

That sounds like a plan. I just read the directions make sure to leave on at least 10 min.

According to the instructions your redken should do the job of clariying as long as you leave it on longer.

Like another poster said add some baking soda too it as well.

If you hair is difficult to move after washing apply whatever conditioner you will be using to the ends first and allow it to sit for a minute or so to make the hair pliable. After the min or so commence to applying it to the rest of your hair in sections making sure to tiene cuidad when seperating the hair.

ACV rinses donot clarify the hair all it does in assit in bringing down the ph of the hair while wet.


Also consider washing the hair in sections. part in 4 quads and wash each section seperately and put twist it and put a clip on it to help prevent tangles. Natural and long hair does better being washed like this/

There is no way I could wash my DD's natural hair all together that is asking for tangles.

I did that, and it helped so much.

As for the rubbery hair, I had it straight after I chelated my hair, and straight after using the nexxus emergencee as well (seeing as this time it was on clean hair -it still did nothing strengthening wise).

But that feeling (the rubberiness) went away when I applied condish (Jason sea kelp). Anyway, maybe it was just stripped hair? But the waxy feel I got after oil rinsing was definitely me not getting it all out.

 

[bb09]

@bb09 and @darlingdiva...oil rinsing should be rinsed off with hot water rather than warm water. Made that mistake. Never again. Hot water all the way to avoid waxy and oily feel.
http://www.longhaircareforum.com/showthread.php?t=150965
http://www.longhaircareforum.com/showpost.php?p=12864671&postcount=616

divachyk -Thank you. I did use hot water to rinse. My hair's just difficult to part through, so I know I used a Lot of oil

 

[bb09]

Anyway, thanks ladies.
I have no idea how my hair's gonna come out 2mo -when fully dry.

As soon as I can figure out how to get stretched /moisturised hair (inc roots!), and how to lessen shower breakage (by a lot), I'll be so haps.

 

[Myjourney2009]

Anyway, thanks ladies.
I have no idea how my hair's gonna come out 2mo -when fully dry.

As soon as I can figure out how to get stretched /moisturised hair (inc roots!), and how to lessen shower breakage (by a lot), I'll be so haps.

Stop detangling in the shower, its not for everyone. I can only detangle my DD's hair while its barely wet so I dont get breakage.

What does 2mo mean?

 

[bb09]

Stop detangling in the shower, its not for everyone. I can only detangle my DD's hair while its barely wet so I dont get breakage.

What does 2mo mean?

Myjourney2009 -Oh sorry. 2mo is short for tomorrow !

I generally just try to part through my hair /separate it, 'cause as soon as water hit it, it clumps together. I do that again (separate it /fingercomb) when I'm applying conditioner, so that it's not only the outer layer of my hair getting the condish.

I don't even intend to fully detangle, but I get hair all over my hands. I know I get atleast 50 broken hairs /demarcation breakage, which is ughh

 

[Myjourney2009]

okay see I did ot know yuu were relaxed.

Getting all that breakage is not good nor is it normal.

Here are some suggestions:

you need a journal quick
you need to reevaluate your routine and products used.

Put your shampoo in a spouted color applicator bootle this way you dont have to seperate your hair.
Keep the hair in one direction when washing; all that crap we see in the commercials dont do that.

DONOT COMB your hair during this stage
My hair clumps together when wet so,When applying conditioner apply it the ends first and wait a few minutes to allow it to help you seperate your hair.

Take out all your products and write down what they are doing for hair each time you use them. If they cause breakage throw or give them away.

Dont all anything to your conditioners they should work alone, this will help you to see what works and what doesnt work.

If you are relaxed with lye you need more light protein
If relaxed with no lye you need more moisture products.

When I started my healthy journey I had constant breakage. Slowly but surely I narrowed down the culprits. I was adding oils and all combing conditioner and all that jazz. Finally I readjusted and saw that DC'ing everyweek was not for me less breakage there, then I saw that I needed more protein and more and more till I was using more protein than moisture ( I had to go through all the different proteins to find the best one for me; I saw less breakage. Then I stopped using a creme moisturizer everyday boom even less breakage. I happened to wait til my watery creme moisturizer was dry and I started getting even less breakage. Now I still get some because I dont think it will every stop but its at a point that I can deal with it. stopped com

I dont add creme moisturizers to comb wet I use a liquidy leave-in: Aphogee provitamin (sometimes)

I even evaluated the combs I was using.

Yeah it was a major overhaul to my routine but now I can say I am on my way to fab hair. Its getting fuller and I am less stressed.

 

[bb09]

okay see I did ot know yuu were relaxed.

Getting all that breakage is not good nor is it normal.

Here are some suggestions:

you need a journal quick
you need to reevaluate your routine and products used.

Put your shampoo in a spouted color applicator bootle this way you dont have to seperate your hair.
Keep the hair in one direction when washing; all that crap we see in the commercials dont do that.

DO NOT COMB your hair during this stage
My hair clumps together when wet so,When applying conditioner apply it the ends first and wait a few minutes to allow it to help you seperate your hair. What about for shampoo? I still have to kinda part my hair so that the shampoo gets through my hair. But geez, separating my hair, or even moisturising it while it's Damp means breakage for me. My hair clumps together, particularly in the middle and at the ends. Do you force the nozzle through your hair, or just pour the contents over the clumped hair?

Take out all your products and write down what they are doing for hair each time you use them. If they cause breakage throw or give them away. Too many products lol. I've noticed moisturising conditioners all work the same for me.. no long lasting effects. My aubrey organics glycoprotein balancing con is the only conditioner that kind of gives me slip, and seems to 'stay' in my hair. It's protein though, so I stopped using it all the time, since I'm trying to avoid the probs that come with too much protein (e.g. matting).

Dont add anything to your conditioners they should work alone, this will help you to see what works and what doesnt work.

If you are relaxed with lye you need more light protein
If relaxed with no lye you need more moisture products. Thanks. I use no-lye. I think I need something strengthening to stop the breakage. Nothing's really worked in that department though.

When I started my healthy journey I had constant breakage. Slowly but surely I narrowed down the culprits. I was adding oils and all combing conditioner and all that jazz. Finally I readjusted and saw that DC'ing everyweek was not for me less breakage there, then I saw that I needed more protein and more and more till I was using more protein than moisture ( I had to go through all the different proteins to find the best one for me; I saw less breakage. Then I stopped using a creme moisturizer everyday boom even less breakage. I happened to wait til my watery creme moisturizer was dry and I started getting even less breakage. Now I still get some because I dont think it will every stop but its at a point that I can deal with it. stopped com That's great. I've definitely figured out what my hair doesn't respond to, but the breakage I get is crazy, so something's missing.

I dont add creme moisturizers to comb wet I use a liquidy leave-in: Aphogee provitamin (sometimes)

I even evaluated the combs I was using.

Yeah it was a major overhaul to my routine but now I can say I am on my way to fab hair. Its getting fuller and I am less stressed.

Myjourney2009 -thanks so much. And yeah I'm relaxed (texlaxed), so I still get shrinkage etc.

What kind of strengtheners do you use? I've tried keratin, and that made the ends of my hair break as if I dusted it.
I don't think silk has done anything for me.. nothing bad, but not noticeably strong hair either.
Emergencee didn't strengthen my hair -even when freshly clarified, and I allowed it to get hard.
I don't think wheat protein ever did anything great for me, from what I can remember. I have some pure wheat protein, so I can try it again at some point.
I have (pure) hydrolyzed oat protein too, but apparently it gives more moisture than strength, and I don't really know what to do with it.

 

[Myjourney2009]

You are not relaxed bonestraight (neither am I in some sections) so you have to treat your hair more like a natural head.
Before washing your hair put some conditioner on and put a cap on and leave it for 30 mins. This will help your hair get soft so it is easier to part. Dont worry about getting it everywhere if a section wont seperate easily just get it where you can. Take off the cap and put your hair in 2-4 sections and clip them up. When washing 1 section at a time to shampoo. Yes I place the nozzle in random sections and squeeze the shampoo in. It does not result in breakage. Smush the shampoo into the hair but dont go crazy with moving your hair all over the place. Try to keep the hair going in one direction while washing each section. Clip and move on to the next section and repeat the same process.

What I meant by take each product is on the day you use it, monitor your hair for the week to see how it reacted to the product.

You use a no lye relaxer so you need more moisture go easy with the protein. Also get your self a chelating shampoo and use it everytime you shampoo use it the day you relax as well, a good one is Sallys Quantum shampoo. No lye relaxers cause mineral buildup which prevent moisture from reaching the strand. If you have tried strenghtening products and they have not worked yet then you need to use more moisture. When I was learning my hair and I was using more moisture after moisture and my hair was still breaking I then started using more protein and that was the ticket.

If you want to use strengthening with moisture use products that say just that Sallys has one called Ion Intensive Protein treatment. It is a combo of protein(veggie) and moisture. I use it 1x a month and I love it. I keep no less than 2 liter sized containers at home.

What keratin did you try?

Silk is more like a moisturizer for me as well. I use it only when I am flatironing to give a tiny bit of strength.

The emergencee was probably unable to get to your strands to fill in the missing cuticles because you need to chelate your hair.

Wheat protein is more like a very light protein that helps to lock in moisture. Again if your strands are blocked with mineral buildup then you need a chelator.

Yup, Oat protein is similar to wheat protein in that it helps the hair hold on to moisture. It is not as strong as keratin but is milder than wheat protein

Give me an idea of what your monthly regimin has been this past month.
Shampoo and how often and with what.
Moisture conditioners (which ones)and how many days a week
leave ins how often
protein and how often

Once I see this I can help you some more.

you've already mentioned what is not working so seperate those from what you have not mentioned into a seperate bag or something for now so we can work on what you havent used.

 

[bb09]

Before washing your hair put some conditioner on and put a cap on and leave it for 30 mins.
I'll start doing this, but as soon as water hits my hair, wouldn't the conditioner just rinse out?



When washing 1 section at a time to shampoo. Yes I place the nozzle in random sections and squeeze the shampoo in. It does not result in breakage.
That's great, but when I used the redken cleansing cream -creamy chelating shampoo, it's really hard to dilute it with water for some reason, so I had to use it straight the last time. I might have to nix /stop using an applicator bottle. Applicator bottles are much better for the watery shampoos.




You use a no lye relaxer so you need more moisture go easy with the protein. Also get yourself a chelating shampoo and use it everytime you shampoo use it the day you relax as well, a good one is Sallys Quantum shampoo.
I've been doing this for the past few weeks so far (chelating my hair). Sally's is just so hard to find /access here!
And I've been going easy on the protein until recently. I was/am trying to strengthen my hair to tackle the breakage I get when I wash my hair.



Give me an idea of what your monthly regimen has been this past month.
shampoo and how often and with what. I do my hair weekly. Since I relaxed my hair in March, I've chelated my hair with diluted shampoo 2x in a row (Redken cleansing cream); it doesn't dilute well though.
And I used it straight (non-diluted) this week, so I think it would have gotten everything out of my hair.

moisture conditioners (which ones)and how many days a week. Straight after my relaxer, I used silk elements leave-in, mixed with rusk deep shine sea kelp conditioner (no difference).

Week 2 -I chelated again (diluted shampoo), then used nexxus emergencee, followed by jason sea kelp condish on one side, and ofasimplenature orchid flower conditioner on the other side (just to see which gives slip etc).

Week 3 (this week) -I chelated again -this time full strength, then used the nexxus emergencee (both times I let it get hard, but still no strengthening). Then I followed with the jason sea kelp condish on wet hair.

leave ins how often. I normally use condish on my wet hair, and I might use condish again once inbetween (on all my hair). I usually just spritz and moisturise the length of my hair daily.

protein and how often. 3x, but I always followed it with a moisturising dc
Oh yeah, I tried Joico's keratin reconstructor. I had 1/2 cm of breakage all over, as if I trimmed my hair. I've tried using an egg as well, and it Immediately dries up my hair. I got breakage (and matted NG) after using it.

 

[bb09]

If it's easier to read -I typically rinse my hair in the shower, and I usually dilute shampoo and use it, then I follow up with a dc or conditioner. I mostly use moisturising conditioners -jason sea kelp conditioner /dc. Sometimes I mix silk element's dc with aubrey organics gpb, and claudie's moisturising conditioner. I get out of the shower for that. Then I rinse with filtered water (always).

Moisturisers and moisturising dc's don't really make a difference for me, but I usually use diluted conditioner as a leave-in. I realised though last week, that using Mostly water, and like a tsp of condish =knots!! So I usually just leave some condish on my hair, and I moisturise just the ends atleast every other day.

My hair always feel smooth /nice while drying, then dry when fully dried, particularly at the roots!

 

[bb09]

I have exams I'm revising for btw Myjourney2009. I really do appreciate your help. I really can't be logging in though, so if I don't get back to you soon, I'm trying to get work done like I should lol.

I just can't believe that it's now 1.20 in the morning, and I've been on lhcf since 9 or 10pm, when I have important upcoming exams .

 

[Myjourney2009]

I understand you have exams

I am going to say this for right now and then later on we can get into the meat and potatoes. YU]ou need a better cleansing shampoo[/U]. Anytime a shampoo says creamy, detangling or creme it is going to leave a film over the hair that is not going to allow anything else you put on your hair do its job. The reason why it does not dilute well is becasue there are conditioning agents that are left behind once the hair is rinsed. You can also go online to check if your state or municipality has hard water.

You are going to have to order on-line from Sallys. The Quantum shampoo is what I suggest , if not then get a VO5 shampoo a clear one they cost very little. They will cleanse the hair very well this shampoo acts more as a clarifier not a chelator. If you use the the Vo5 shampoo after shampooing take 1/8 cup ACV (from health food store) added to 2 cups water (tap is fine) and dump it over your head 5x's and let it sit for 10 min. DONT rinse immedialtely do your DC. This should help if you have a porosity problem and will help the DC to work better.

Remember chelating an clarifying are two different things.. Chelators rid the hair of everything: product buildup AND mineral deposits.

Clarifiers rid the hair ONLY of product buildup.

People that use no lye relaxers need a chelator. If the chelator has heavey cones in the ingredients it will not work very well and is typically for someone that does not have a chemical in their hair (no relaxers, or dye jobs).

Dont add anything to your your moisture DC's, no mixing 2 and 3 conditioners together. Use one at a time not all together. There is nothing wrong with switching up from time to time but if used all together how will you know what is working.

When you say your hair feels dry when fully dry, this is how my hair would feel when a conditioner did not work. I would give it away after that.

When diluting conditioners to use as a leave-in use distilled water not tap water.


A clean slate is always to best way to start a routine.

I discussed your shampoo and DCing process here. Try that when you get a chance and let me know.