The Events of CHRIST'S RETURN

[melodee]

Yes. I agree. This will happen during the time that God destroys the earth.

One day, God's anger toward sin will be fully and completely unleashed. Satan will be defeated with all of his agents. False religion will be destroyed. God will reward the faithful with eternal life, but all who refuse to believe in Him will face eternal punishment.
The importance of this is that evil and injustice will not prevail forever. God's final judgement will put an end to these. We need to be certain of our committment to Jesus if we want to escape this great final judgement. No one who is uncommitted to Christ will escape God's punishment.

It's like we are all living at the time when the sand in the hourglass is mostly poured out in the bottom half. God's tolerance toward sin is holding out, but soon the last grain of sand will hit the bottom and this is when the trib will begin. I believe that the church (meaning those who have accepted Christ) will be taken out of here before all "heck" breaks loose.

 

[sugaplum]

I don't think we should take the bible literally. Afterall the bible was written by man.

I believe heaven or hell is within oneself. We have the choice of living our lives to become a Supreme Being within ourselves.

Intresting:scratchch...my cousin is of the Ba'hai Faith and he believes the same thing.

 

[DelightfulFlame]

I'm looking forward to your thoughts. Wait a minute... you actually work? People actually work at work? Wow...

LOL... I know! That is a mystery to me too.

 

[sprungonhairboards]

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Revelation 21:8.

The wicked die the second death in hellfire. If the wicked lived forever being tortured in hell, they would be immortal. But this is impossible, because the Bible says God "only hath immortality." 1 Timothy 6:16. When Adam and Eve were driven from the Garden of Eden, an angel was posted to guard the tree of life so that sinners would not eat of the tree and "live for ever." Genesis 3:22-24. The teaching that sinners are immortal in hell originated with Satan and is completely untrue. God prevented this when sin entered this earth by guarding the tree of life.

The Bible says the wicked suffer "death" (Romans 6:23), will suffer "destruction" (Job 21:30), "shall perish" (Psalm 37:20), will "burn" up (Malachi 4:1), "shall be destroyed together" (Psalm 37:38), will "consume away" (Psalm 37:20), "shall be cut off" (Psalm 37:9), "shall be slain" (Psalm 62:3). God will "destroy" them (Psalm 145:20), and "fire shall devour them" (Psalm 21:9). Note that all of these references make it clear that the wicked die and are destroyed. They do not live forever in misery.

"Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it." Isaiah 47:14. "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth." "And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." Revelation 21:1, 4.

The Bible specifically teaches that hellfire will go out and that there will not be left "a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it." The Bible also teaches that in God's new kingdom all "former things" will be passed away. Hell, being one of the former things, is included, so we have God's promise that it will be abolished.

Very, very intersting interpretation. So are you saying the dead (the unriteous), when they are dead and destroyed, just go away, like dead and gone? Because if so what's the motivation to be and live saved. Eternal life that we cannot as humans fathom anyway? Why not live as we want now and just accept death? We can't imagine what it was like not being born so why would death be any different? I hope Im making sense, probably not but you got my brain to whirling

 

[MomofThreeBoys]

Yes, they are dead and gone as the scriptures I provided say.

The motivation is the promises set forth by Christ when you accept him. They are
1) seeing your Saviour whom you truly love and being with Him
2) Heaven
3) Eternal life

Even if there was an eternal fire, we cannot "play" Christian to avoid it. In other words, we shouldn't choose Christ because we are afraid of the final death. Choosing Christ as the lesser of two options is not the same as choosing him because you love Him and proclaim Him to be your Lord and Saviour. Christ knows our hearts and our motivation.

Matthew 7:21-24
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you
evildoers!'

ETA: God does not try the use fear to get us to love him and accept Him. This is not his character. His character is centered around love.

Very, very intersting interpretation. So are you saying the dead (the unriteous), when they are dead and destroyed, just go away, like dead and gone? Because if so what's the motivation to be and live saved. Eternal life that we cannot as humans fathom anyway? Why not live as we want now and just accept death? We can't imagine what it was like not being born so why would death be any different? I hope Im making sense, probably not but you got my brain to whirling

 

[DelightfulFlame]

About taking the bible literally...I do believe that there are literal parts in there somewhere...just not many...LOL.

Seriously, even the bible says not to take it literally. It says that you can't understand spiritual things with a carnal mind.

John 6
63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

1 Cor 2
10But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
11For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
13Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
14But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
15But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.

Proverbs 25
2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.

Romans 8
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

1 Corinthians 3
1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

Even Jesus isn't to be taken literally, as He himself said.

Matthew 13
34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

Why? Didn't Jesus want the whole world to clearly understand Him?

Matthew 13
10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.

The apostles didn't even understand the parables. (Matthew 13:36-37, 15:15)

Notice at the beginning of Revelation, John was standing in the SPIRIT.

Revelation 1
10I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

--------------------------------------------
As for the fire...

1 Corinthians 3
11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

and check this out...

Hebrews 12
29 FOR OUR GOD IS A CONSUMING FIRE.

and if you think the fire in the bible is literal, then is this fire literal too?

James 3
6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell.

There are some more things that I'm studying. Translation issues...like in Revelation where it says "forever and ever". That has never made sense to me. It's like saying infinity and finity(is that a word? well insert "finite" if it isn't...LOL).

 

[DelightfulFlame]

The wicked die the second death in hellfire. If the wicked lived forever being tortured in hell, they would be immortal. But this is impossible, because the Bible says God "only hath immortality." 1 Timothy 6:16.

This stance confuses me. Scripture says that only God has immortality now. But if God is the only one that will have it from now on, then wouldn't we all cease to exist...whether wicked or not?

 

[MomofThreeBoys]

The bible talks to us in 3 different ways:

historically - documentation of events that have happened (i.e. The Flood, Jews enslaved by Egypt, etc., Crucifiction)
prophetically - predicts things that will happen (i.e. prophecies in the Old Testmament regarding Christ)
figuratively - parables (The Prodigal Son)

 

[sprungonhairboards]

Yes, they are dead and gone as the scriptures I provided say.

The motivation is the promises set forth by Christ when you accept him. They are
1) seeing your Saviour whom you truly love and being with Him
2) Heaven
3) Eternal life

Even if there was an eternal fire, we cannot "play" Christian to avoid it. In other words, we shouldn't choose Christ because we are afraid of the final death. Choosing Christ as the lesser of two options is not the same as choosing him because you love Him and proclaim Him to be your Lord and Saviour. Christ knows our hearts and our motivation.

But honestly, isnt that the main motivation for alot if not most people who come to Christ initially?

Knowing, loving and learning about the Savior comes later for alot of Christians. Alot of people are not driven to Christ based on love for him. At least not in the beginning. If there were no consequences for sin and the fear of eternal damnation I'm not sure if salvation would be as big a priority for alot of people. And if you don't believe anyway, why would spending eternity in heaven with Jesus be motivation to get saved?

 

[MomofThreeBoys]

No. Immortality is a gift given to those who believe and accept Christ by God. The gift of eternal life. The wicked with not "receive" this gift and then perish.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

This stance confuses me. If God is the only immortal one, then wouldn't we all cease to exist, whether wicked or not?

 

[MomofThreeBoys]

Not for me. I grew up in the Church and left during college. I was having a grand ole time. But I felt something wasn't right with my life. That was the Holy Spirit tugging on me. I didn't go back b/c I feared death. I went back b/c I felt God trying to speak to me and then developed a relationship with him.

But honestly, isnt that the main motivation for alot if not most people who come to Christ initially?

Knowing, loving and learning about the Savior comes later for alot of Christians. Alot of people are not driven to Christ based on love for him. At least not in the beginning. If there were no consequences for sin and the fear of eternal damnation I'm not sure if salvation would be as big a priority for alot of people. And if you don't believe anyway, why would spending eternity in heaven with Jesus be motivation to get saved?

 

[DelightfulFlame]

No. Immortality is a gift given to those who believe and accept Christ by God. The gift of eternal life. The wicked with not "receive" this gift and then perish.

Romans 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Oh. I see. And that's a whole 'other post. Working for the gift...aka "receiving" it.

 

[MomofThreeBoys]

Exactly!

Oh. I see. And that's a whole 'other post. Working for the gift...aka "receiving" it.

 

[JenJen2721]

1 Corinthians 3
1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

Even Jesus isn't to be taken literally, as He himself said.

DF,

I looked up the scripture you printed in the New International Version of the bible. I don't read the KJV very much because it reminds me of Shakespeare and I was never good at Shakespeare, plus we don't talk like that anyway.

So here it is from NIV:

1 Corinthians 3
On Divisions in the Church
1Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual but as worldly—mere infants in Christ. 2I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. 3You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere men? 4For when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos," are you not mere men?

No where did Jesus say that we should not take him literally.

But that's your interpretation, the average person would not interpret it like that. Bible reading does require common sense, but I don't understand how you interpreted that scripture that way.

BTW, I thought this forum was for Christians??? You don't consider yourself a Christian correct?

 

[JenJen2721]

Romans 8
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Another misinterpretation, imho...here's the NIV in other words, plain english:

Romans 8
7the sinful mind[f] is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.

It says, the sinful mind....not the literal mind. Big difference.

 

[sprungonhairboards]

Not for me. I grew up in the Church and left during college. I was having a grand ole time. But I felt something wasn't right with my life. That was the Holy Spirit tugging on me. I didn't go back b/c I feared death. I went back b/c I felt God trying to speak to me and then developed a relationship with him.

Me either, but thats not the case for everybody. Thats what I'm saying. Everybody didnt grow up in church or with saved influences. Some have closed minds and do not wish to receive. Some believe fully in other religions or are atheists all together. What's their motivation to submit if not the fear of retribution? But like you said I believe the Holy Spirit can call us out of whatever darkness we are in and turn even the most hardened hearts around, maybe that's my answer.

 

[kisz4tj]

Ya know.......God the Father sent his son to die, be pierced on the cross for me, before I was even conceived. I don't surrender my life to Christ out of fear. It's because he LOVES me in spite of myself. I don't know anyone who has done it out of fear...it's all about LOVE.

 

[DelightfulFlame]

DF,

I looked up the scripture you printed in the New International Version of the bible. I don't read the KJV very much because it reminds me of Shakespeare and I was never good at Shakespeare, plus we don't talk like that anyway.

So here it is from NIV:

1 Corinthians 3
On Divisions in the Church
1Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual but as worldly—mere infants in Christ. 2I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. 3You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere men? 4For when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos," are you not mere men?

No where did Jesus say that we should not take him literally.

But that's your interpretation, the average person would not interpret it like that. Bible reading does require common sense, but I don't understand how you interpreted that scripture that way.

BTW, I thought this forum was for Christians??? You don't consider yourself a Christian correct?

Translation issues...exactly what I said I was studying. There's a great example that you just posted.

What's it to you what I consider myself? If you must know, I'm probably not a Christian by today's standards. But Jesus wasn't either, so does it really matter? I thought we were here in this thread discussing the Word of God.

 

[sprungonhairboards]

Ya know.......God the Father sent his son to die, be pierced on the cross for me, before I was even conceived. I don't surrender my life to Christ out of fear. It's because he LOVES me in spite of myself. I don't know anyone who has done it out of fear...it's all about LOVE.

First you have to believe that. Not everyone does.

 

[MomofThreeBoys]

I don't know anyone who came into the church b/c of of fear. The motivation is the Holy Spirit. That tugging is not exclusive to Christians. It is for everyone. I just don't believe everyone has the same "light". A person in China might not know of "Christ" but they feel that tugging to worship a "being" or to live a righteous life the best way he knows how. God has followers who are not Christians. One day when they hear the Gospel and the Lord convicts them, they will accept. But until then, they belong to Christ because they are living according to the light they have been given.

John 10:16
16I have other sheep, too, that are not in this sheepfold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice; and there will be one flock with one shepherd.

A biblical example of this would be Rahab. I believe she felt that tugging. She was a heathen prostitute but she knew!!!! She had heard about the God of Israel but she didn't grow up around them or was raised in a Godly home. Her story can be found in Joshua 2.

Me either, but thats not the case for everybody. Thats what I'm saying. Everybody didnt grow up in church or with saved influences. Some have closed minds and do not wish to receive. Some believe fully in other religions or are atheists all together. What's their motivation to submit if not the fear of retribution? But like you said I believe the Holy Spirit can call us out of whatever darkness we are in and turn even the most hardened hearts around, maybe that's my answer.

 

[kisz4tj]

I don't know anyone who came into the church b/c of of fear. The motivation is the Holy Spirit. That tugging is not exclusive to Christians. It is for everyone. I just don't believe everyone has the same "light". A person in China might not know of "Christ" but they feel that tugging to worship a "being" or to live a righteous life the best way he knows how. God has followers who are not Christians. One day when they hear the Gospel and the Lord convicts them, they will accept. But until then, they belong to Christ because they are living according to the light they have been given.

John 10:16
16I have other sheep, too, that are not in this sheepfold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice; and there will be one flock with one shepherd.

A biblical example of this would be Rahab. I believe she felt that tugging. She was a heathen prostitute but she knew!!!! She had heard about the God of Israel but she didn't grow up around them or was raised in a Godly home. Her story can be found in Joshua 2.

Good example.

 

[DelightfulFlame]

I don't know anyone who came into the church b/c of of fear. The motivation is the Holy Spirit. That tugging is not exclusive to Christians. It is for everyone. I just don't believe everyone has the same "light". A person in China might not know of "Christ" but they feel that tugging to worship a "being" or to live a righteous life the best way he knows how. God has followers who are not Christians. One day when they hear the Gospel and the Lord convicts them, they will accept. But until then, they belong to Christ because they are living according to the light they have been given.

John 10:16
16I have other sheep, too, that are not in this sheepfold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice; and there will be one flock with one shepherd.

A biblical example of this would be Rahab. I believe she felt that tugging. She was a heathen prostitute but she knew!!!! She had heard about the God of Israel but she didn't grow up around them or was raised in a Godly home. Her story can be found in Joshua 2.

I do know some people that came out of fear, and I'm included. I was raised Baptist, and I heard way more about hell and the devil then I ever heard about God. 51 weeks out of the year, they preached about the devil and it seemed like 1 week they decided to talk about love. Of course that is an exaggeration, but growing up listening to that mess...I thought God was crazy! He couldn't even keep us from the devil, and when He did...it was only so He could smash us, send some bugs to sting us, swallow us up in a whale, burn us up, or drown us. LOL...it took a long time for me to really love God, and I'm still growing in that everyday.

 

[JenJen2721]

Translation issues...exactly what I said I was studying. There's a great example that you just posted.

What's it to you what I consider myself? If you must know, I'm probably not a Christian by today's standards. But Jesus wasn't either, so does it really matter? I thought we were here in this thread discussing the Word of God.

My beef is not whether you're a Christian or not, but according to the rules of this forum, non-Christians shouldn't be posting here. IMHO, this forum is for Christian sisters to uplift one another, not for non-Christians to dispute what we believe in, which is what I see in a lot of your posts. We are all at different points in our Christian journey, but to me when you post here disputing this and that, it may be harmful for some Christians that are weaker in their journey. I suspect that's why the rules were set up the way that they were. I also don't care whether you're a Christian according to "today's standards" it's whether you consider yourself a Christian. It's not for me to say, that's why I asked whether you considered yourself a Christian.

And yes, we are here to discuss the Word of God.

 

[sprungonhairboards]

God has followers who are not Christians[/B]. One day when they hear the Gospel and the Lord convicts them, they will accept. But until then, they belong to Christ because they are living according to the light they have been given.

I know the tugging is not exclusive to Christians, Christians by definition are those who have already come to Christ. Your bolded part confused me a little, if you're not following Christ what God would they be following that still allow them to be Christians?

 

[DelightfulFlame]

My beef is not whether you're a Christian or not, but according to the rules of this forum, non-Christians shouldn't be posting here. IMHO, this forum is for Christian sisters to uplift one another, not for non-Christians to dispute what we believe in, which is what I see in a lot of your posts. We are all at different points in our Christian journey, but to me when you post here disputing this and that, it may be harmful for some Christians that are weaker in their journey. I suspect that's why the rules were set up the way that they were. I also don't care whether you're a Christian according to "today's standards" it's whether you consider yourself a Christian. It's not for me to say, that's why I asked whether you considered yourself a Christian.

And yes, we are here to discuss the Word of God.

you say this forum is to uplift...who am I tearing down?

I have discussions about the Word, just like everyone else. People make snide remarks to me all day long about who I am, rather than just post about the topic at hand. I try to respond as lovingly as I know how, even though my strength is tested constantly.

Can only Christians who fit your box of what a Christian should be post here? Why not just have a conversation with yourself, since anyone who doesn't agree with you is obviously not worthy.

Have a blessed day, 'cause I really don't want to go any farther on this with you. This is not edifying and I sure don't get the feeling you are coming at me in love. Good day.

 

[JenJen2721]

you say this forum is to uplift...who am I tearing down?

See the part in my post about weaker Christians....also the bible mentions strengthening weaker Christians.

I have discussions about the Word, just like everyone else. People make snide remarks to me all day long about who I am, rather than just post about the topic at hand. I try to respond as lovingly as I know how, even though my strength is tested constantly.

Can only Christians who fit your box of what a Christian should be post here? Why not just have a conversation with yourself, since anyone who doesn't agree with you is obviously not worthy.

I never said that ANYWHERE in my posts. Don't make false accusations. Again, that's your interpretation.

Have a blessed day, 'cause I really don't want to go any farther on this with you. This is not edifying and I sure don't get the feeling you are coming at me in love. Good day.

You too, DelightfulFlame....I felt very strongly about what I posted, perhaps that's why you didn't feel the love. I didn't sugarcoat at all, but I still love you.

Maybe another day...

--Jen

 

[MomofThreeBoys]

It's hard to explain via internet. Humm. Going to church does not equal being a Christian in my book. Coming to an edifice and "doing the right things" does not make you a Christian.

People come to church for many different reasons. Companionship, habit, social structure, peer pressure, family pressure,etc. None of these is a basis for a relationship with Christ.

Accepting Christ with your entire being and loving him is being a Christian. Fear plays not part in this.

A relationship with Christ based on fear is not of God.

2Timothy:1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind

I do know some people that came out of fear, and I'm included. I was raised Baptist, and I heard way more about hell and the devil then I ever heard about God. 51 weeks out of the year, they preached about the devil and it seemed like 1 week they decided to talk about love. Of course that is an exaggeration, but growing up listening to that mess...I thought God was crazy! He couldn't even keep us from the devil, and when He did...it was only so He could smash us, send some bugs to sting us, swallow us up in a whale, burn us up, or drown us. LOL...it took a long time for me to really love God, and I'm still growing in that everyday.

 

[MomofThreeBoys]

It is based on this text:

John 10:16
I have other sheep, too, that are not in this sheepfold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice; and there will be one flock with one shepherd.

You might not know "Him" by the name of Christ, but you know "He" or "something" is there guiding you and watching over you. You BELONG to Christ, meaning you are his sheep, but are not in the sheepfold, don't belong to the Christian Church in name.

I know the tugging is not exclusive to Christians, Christians by definition are those who have already come to Christ. Your bolded part confused me a little, if you're not following Christ what God would they be following that still allow them to be Christians?

 

[sprungonhairboards]

It is based on this text:

John 10:16
I have other sheep, too, that are not in this sheepfold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice; and there will be one flock with one shepherd.

You might not know "Him" by the name of Christ, but you know "He" or "something" is there guiding you and watching over you. You BELONG to Christ, meaning you are his sheep, but are not in the sheepfold, don't belong to the Christian Church in name.

Gotcha

 

[DelightfulFlame]

See the part in my post about weaker Christians....also the bible mentions strengthening weaker Christians.

I never said that ANYWHERE in my posts. Don't make false accusations. Again, that's your interpretation.

You too, DelightfulFlame....I felt very strongly about what I posted, perhaps that's why you didn't feel the love. I didn't sugarcoat at all, but I still love you.

Maybe another day...

--Jen

You know I said I wasn't going to post anything else to you, but I must say this. What strengthens more than studying the Word of God? God's word can't be questioned? The truth is the truth...no matter who asks. When something confuses me, it doesn't mean that it's bad. It means I need to LEARN more about that subject...pray, meditate, discuss, study, etc...until I gain the understanding that I need.