Do you use products with polyquats?

[mg1979]

I was reading up on polyquats possibly causing build up & being difficult to remove. Do you ladies avoid products with polyquats (or just certain ones, if some are worse than others)? How has it helped to eliminate them if you have?


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[Solitude]

I don't even know what a polyquat is.


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[Fab_Nikki]

I don't know what they are either but just like Cones and any other "forbidden" products, if they work for my hair then I'm going to use them. That's what poo is for, sulfate free that is

 

[cocosweet]

I didn't know what a polyquat was so I poked around and found this:

Polyquats?

Posted by CURLYNIKKI | Labels: Curly Hair Tips, FAQs, Hair Tips, Natural Hair Advice
"Nikki, what are polyquats, and why are they considered a no-no?"

I'm by no means a chemist, so I did a search on Google and NaturallyCurly and came up with the following:

Polyquats = polyquaternium polymers found in many styling products
Major Concerns= Water insolubility and build-up

Polyquaternium materials range from water miscible to water soluble, in varying degrees. However, it is important to realize that these are used in products because they form a complex with your hair due to electrostatic interactions. The resultant complex between the hair keratin and the polymer can actually be more stable than any complex that might be formed by attraction between a Polyquaternium polymer and an anionic surfactant such as sodium lauryl sulfate. This means that some of these polymers can be resistant to removal, even with clarifying shampoos. Polystyrene sulfonate, a negatively charged polymer, has been found to aid in removal of these polymers in cases where they are resistant to removal by traditional means. Some studies have shown that Polyquaternium-4 is particularly good about not causing build-up.

There is a lot of conflicting information out there...I don't really pay much attention to polyquats, because most of my products are devoid of them. However, if you're a gel user, you may want to check out the following list of polyquats and what they're used for:

Cationic polymers (Polyquaternium)– These positively-charged polymers are very substantive to the negatively-charged surfaces of human hair. For this reason, some cationic polymers have been found to be useful in hair styling applications. They form clear, glossy films and decrease static-charge buildup and fly-away hair. They typically provide good wet and dry combing results and impart a smooth feel to the hair.

Polyquaternium-4 is a superior film-former on the hair, and has been found to exhibit very high curl retention even in humidity. It is very substantive to hair, but exhibits little build-up. It is very stiff due to its molecular structure, and is thus outstanding for use in hair gels.

Polyquaternium-11 is copolymer of VP/DMAEMA (vinyl pyrrolidone and dimethylaminoethyl methacrylate). As a copolymer of VP and an acrylate, it is less susceptible to humidity than VP homopolymer. However, it may have more potential for failure due to humidity than polyquaternium-4. Polyquaternium-11 is generally recommended for mousses and creams, where it can moisturize as well as aid in styling. This polymer is water miscible, but not water soluble. This could lead to some build-up over time if one were not using a clarifying shampoo occasionally. There are many more polymers, copolymers, combinations of polymers, and new additives for hair gels that are being used in commercially available formulas, and even more being developed in laboratories. Many of these provide better rinsability, more softness, and a tougher film with better hold.

The above is extracted from THIS ARTICLE.

It looks like many curlies are concerned about quats for the same reasons that they are concerned about cones. However, if you live in a humid climate, like NC or GA, polyquat4 may be worth checking in to!

Later Gators,
Nik

I'd say I'm an occasional polyquat user, not a chronic one.

 

[mg1979]

This is one of the things that I found that made me wonder about avoiding them from this site http://jillipoo.blogspot.com/2009/09/silicones-polyquats-and-soap.html:

Polyquaterniums seem to behave much like silicones -- they bind to hair and in some cases, aren't even fully removed even by sulfate-laden shampoos. Should curlies be mindful of polyquats, and if so, which ones? Are we worrying about silicones when polyquats are really much harder to remove? And do polyquats block moisture like silicones do?
PERRY: Curlies should be much more concerned about Polyquats than silicones. Polyquats are positively charged polymers that effectively stick to the damaged sites on hair. They make the hair feel smooth and soft but they can also build up with repeated use resulting in flatter, less lively curls. They can even be more difficult to remove than even Dimethicone. The most problematic polyquat is Polyquaternium-10. While it is the most effective at conditioning hair, it is also the most likely to build-up. Better choices include Polyquaternium-7 or Guar Hydroxpropyltrimonium Chloride.

Neither silicones nor polyquats significantly block moisture. The negative to using them is that they build up on hair and weigh it down.

JESS: When researching what ingredients to put in our Confident Coils Styling Solution, it because obvious that many curlies have an aversion to polyquats. For this reason I left it out and thus haven't done much further research on it as I don't intend to use them in any future products. So I guess I don't have an emotional opinion on them one way or the other.


MARSHA: Polyquat 7 and 11 seem to be the most substantive and hardest to remove if you do not shampoo. I do not find that Polyquat 10 is not as hard to remove. Chlorides seem to do a good job at removing it. Guar Hydroxpropyltrimonium Chloride is an interesting ingredient -- it's a great conditioner but you have to be careful as too much seems to over condition the hair and cause frizz. I've used it in small amounts in some of my products and have had no complaints, but it's easy to overuse and I've seen other products that use too much. Polyquats 4 and 44 are not very difficult to remove. Polyquats 37 and 72 are supposed to provide good curl retention and I suspect would be harder to remove, although I haven't actually used them in my products (although I've tried them out in other products I've tested). And interestingly, Polyquat 72 hasn't been picked up by the industry as much as I would have expected, which probably also says something about its performance record. I believe most shampoos will remove any kind of polyquat, though. When you see some of these ingredients before they go into a formulation, you get a sense of how they behave. For instance, Polyquats 10 and 4 and Guar Hydroxpropyltrimonium Chloride are powder and dissolve instantly in water. For me, this gives you some clue about how they'll behave on hair (in terms of water solubility), especially when you contrast them with Polyquats 7 and 11, which are gluey.

JC: As a surface scientist, I can say that there are quite a few things that cannot be completely removed by SLS; to completely remove, a proper solvent (like chloroform) is needed. We need to redefine this idea of 'complete' removal and why we feel it is necessary because in order to do so, extreme measures have to be taken.

As Perry says, polyquats stick to hair as they have a positive charge. This is similar to other conditioning agents that curlies have no problem with such as such as stearalkonium chloride or behentrimonium chloride. Now people will like different types of conditioning agents. The general trend I have noticed in literature is that polyquats tend to be more useful for damaged hair (bleached). I really have to emphasize and say not all hair will react in the same way to a given product. Some people will swear by polyquats, others won't.

Even more unique, a seemingly similar combination of ingredients from two different companies can yield different results. It really is about how well the product was formulated, so I'm with Marsha on this one, test it first and see how it behaves.

TIFFANY: "Polyquaterniums" is an extremely general category and it is difficult to make a sweeping assumption and say whether or not they are "good" or "bad" across the board. From a cosmetology perspective, however, allergic contact dermatitis, or a hypersensitivity reaction, is not uncommon among some individuals after exposure to certain polyquaterniums.

Most surfactants seem to be effective in removing polyquat build-up; however, I would more cautious about their use from a health perspective rather than a beauty perspective if an individual is prone to any type of skin sensitivities.

 

[Angelicus]

I love LHCF. I learn something new everyday. Tis all.

 

[dancinstallion]

What I don't understand is that it said it is the most effective at conditioning the hair yet most difficult to remove. So it conditions it first then eventually dries it out? Most of the good products I own have Polyquat 11 in them. So I don't know if I am willing to stop using it.

 

[suns4i6e]

I generally try to stay away from polyquats, PVP, polymers and copolymers in styling products. I don't like the way they make my hair feel...always kind of dry-ish. In fact, if I see a quat, PVP or polymer in an ingredient list, I'll usually walk on by. However, the exception is that I am currently using CJ Curl Queen gel which contains polyquat-4, and that's ONLY because Curl Junkie products have superior formulations.

 

[Fhrizzball]

I learned about this from when mwedzi did a thread on it way back and since then I've avoided them. I rather my hair feel moisturized due to its natural nature than via buildup that cones and quats tend to cause it. My hair feels softer due to the switch but I still get buildup at times but now that's easier to take care of as opposed to when I used heavier cones, quats, and what have you products.